"All Believers Taken" In The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching!

[Fidei Defensor]

The Rapture does struggle against these Scriptures, "And the beast was allowed to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation," (Revelation 13:7), "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory," (Matthew 24:29-30), "This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus, " (Revelation 14:12), "And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed, for they will rest from their hard work; for their good deeds follow them!," (Revelation 14:13), "I tell you, he will grant justice to them quickly! But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?," (Luke 18:8), "To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne," (Revelation 3:21), "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved," (Matthew 10:22), and, "I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!" (John 16:33). These same verses also call into question Preterism (the idea that the whole world will be Christianized before Christ's return). The Rapture is a difficult subject to address because it gets confused with being caught up (1 Thessalonians 4:17, after Resurrection of Dead), and a doctrine by an Irish woman who invented the word rapture, and the Left Behind authors & their contributions.

[Zemke]

9 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

The Rapture does struggle against these Scriptures, "And the beast was allowed to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation," (Revelation 13:7), "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory," (Matthew 24:29-30), "This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus, " (Revelation 14:12), "And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed, for they will rest from their hard work; for their good deeds follow them!," (Revelation 14:13), "I tell you, he will grant justice to them quickly! But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?," (Luke 18:8), "To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne," (Revelation 3:21), "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved," (Matthew 10:22), and, "I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!" (John 16:33). These same verses also call into question Preterism (the idea that the whole world will be Christianized before Christ's return). The Rapture is a difficult subject to address because it gets confused with being caught up (1 Thessalonians 4:17, after Resurrection of Dead), and a doctrine by an Irish woman who invented the word rapture, and the Left Behind authors & their contributions.

Even earlier dispensation writers stated pretribulationism is not clearly stated in the scriptures. They didn't know where to put it and it just made sense given their theological perspective to put it before the seventieth week, that was 100 years ago and more.  Over the years it's became gospel even though the gathering unto Jesus is clearly obvious in Matthew 24. But their theology and dogma will not allow them to see that even though it's plainly obvious. Despensationalism sees so much truth but is blinded by the over statement of those truths. Kind of like what happens to pentecostals and spiritual gifts.

What keeps a pre trib person ready is actually just a portion of the fullness of the truth of Jesus' return. Something so important so dynamic as to the end of the age, our blessed hope, the coming of our Lord for us and it's a secret that the world will scratch their heads over? No way, the world will see and hide themselves because they will know the wrath of the Lamb is come. People will see it, Micah ch 7. 9b-10

"He will bring me out to the light, and I will see His righteousness. Then my enemy will see, and shame will cover her who said to me, Where is the LORD your God. My eyes will look on her; at that time she will be trampled down like mire in the streets."

Yatsa -bring me out, pulled out, plucked out, same word used for Rahab and Lot and Moses leading the people to the mountain from the camp as a horn blast grew louder and louder.

We are getting closer every decade, year and day. People are understanding these things more and more as we get closer we need to remain faithful and pray and read. Not with preconceived ideas but to understand the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit. "Buy of me eye salve that you may see" Says Jesus. All of Jeremiahs warnings are just as valid for us in the west today. Where are our hearts and eyes? What are we serving, the work of the Lord or the Lord of the work? It's time as it always is to cleans our garments. When the Lord from the shore called Peter on the boat fishing, Peter stopped what he was doing and put his garment on, then jumped in he water. Who puts there clothes on to go swimming? The garment of salvation. Nothing else is more important than His return. A secret only a theological camp knows about? A silent mystery the world will wonder about or not even notice? NO WAY?

They will see and they will fear. Revelation 6, Matthew 24.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Zemke

[Fidei Defensor]

The Problem with Darby and those who joined him in moving that last week in Daniel, is for 1800yrs Christians had never separated the seventieth week from the others. Besides what John Nelson Darby decided was the antichrist in last week (7oth) actually sounds more like prophecy about the Christ, "He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.” (Daniel 9:27-28). I believe the sacrifices ceased because Jesus became all sufficient sacrifice (Hebrews 10), and the veil in Temple was torn (Matthew 27:41). Then in 70 A.D. Titus destroyed the Jewish Second Temple, which the Jewish Archaeologists I talk to in Jerusalem say that every time the Temple is destroyed it is called "The Abomination of desolation." Notice also that Daniel's prophecy of 70th week is what Jesus addresses in Matthew 24, but Luke gives more detail, "when eagles surround Jerusalem.." (). The Eagles being the symbol of Roman dominion. And isn't it quite incredible that its 70 A.D. when the Temple is destroyed, and 70th Week of Daniel has the Abomination of Desolation, which is what Jews call destroying the Temple. But thankfully the Lord has made us Christians His temple, "Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?," (1 Corinthians 3:16), "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple," (1 Corinthians 3:17), "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own," (1 Corinthians 6:19), "What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people," (2 Corinthians 6:16),and we our God's House, "But Christ, as the Son, is in charge of God's entire house. And we are God's house, if we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ." (Hebrews 3:6)
 

[iamlamad]

You all can stay behind and "tribulate" if you wish. I can assure you, Christ is coming before the 70th week for those of His church who are prepared.

The rapture was not shown to John, but he did get to see the effect of it: the church around the throne in heaven. It is the great crowd seen in Revelation 7. Don't doubt me on this! They did not come out of THE great tribulation that will come in the latter half of the week. They will come of the great tribulation that is happening in Muslim nations today. Case in point: "tribulation" cannot get any greater for an individual that if they are put to death. For them, tribulation was GREAT.

Therefore, the rapture will come something before this great crowd is seen in heaven. In fact, the rapture in REvelaiton will be just before the 6th seal, which is the start of judgment.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I can assure you, Christ is coming before the 70th week for those of His church who are prepared.

Don't doubt me on this! They did not come out of THE great tribulation that will come in the latter half of the week. 

There is only one Great Tribulation as defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

And no less an authority than one of the 24 Elders said the Great Multitude came out of the Great Tribulation.

To put the Rapture before the Great Tribulation means having to redefine who the Elect are in Matthew 24:31, literally, re-writing the Bible.

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

There is only one Great Tribulation as defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

And no less an authority than one of the 24 Elders said the Great Multitude came out of the Great Tribulation.

To put the Rapture before the Great Tribulation means having to redefine who the Elect are in Matthew 24:31, literally, re-writing the Bible.

I guess you just overlooked the "great tribulation" found in Rev. 2.

Revelation 2:22

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

 

If you go back and look closer at Jesus words, you will find these two words: "great tribulation" were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe the days He was talking about. He had to add that there would never in time be any days as bad as these.

 

People wish to put a title of "great tribulation" on the last half of the week, yet Jesus only spoke of "days" of great tribulation. Therefore, the truth is, there are OTHER TIMES in history where tribulation is great. In fact, when people are killed in the numbers they are today we are in great tribulation. How can "tribulation" be any greater for those who have been murdered only because they love Jesus?

 

Don't doubt me on this: when the rapture takes place PRETRIB, it will be "great tribulation." People will be being put to death because they love Jesus around the world. But it will NOT be the days of great tribulation caused by the Beast of Rev. 13.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You've taken that passage totally out of context with what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, making it sound like this is the unparalleled time of distress for the Elect.

Her "children" are also going to be killed off with pestilence in the next verse.

So you suppose this is the same period because of a coincidence of wording.

However, it is localized to a time and place - Thyatira.

And the whole of the churches should learn the lesson - that unless they overcome, they too will be cast like grass into the furnace.

So I do doubt you very much so.  There is no direct evidence of a "pretrib" Rapture in the Bible.

The gathering from the clouds that Jesus does in Rev 14 comes after the midpoint of Rev 13:14-15, and the Great Tribulation caused by Rev 1315-17.  This is congruent with the Olivet Discourse.  Likewise, in the opening broad overview of the end in Rev chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13), the Great Multitude show up in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.  The message that the Rapture happens after the midpoint abomination and Great Tribulation is consistent even unto Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-8.

 

[iamlamad]

On 5/29/2017 at 9:38 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

You've taken that passage totally out of context with what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, making it sound like this is the unparalleled time of distress for the Elect.

Her "children" are also going to be killed off with pestilence in the next verse.

So you suppose this is the same period because of a coincidence of wording.

However, it is localized to a time and place - Thyatira.

And the whole of the churches should learn the lesson - that unless they overcome, they too will be cast like grass into the furnace.

So I do doubt you very much so.  There is no direct evidence of a "pretrib" Rapture in the Bible.

The gathering from the clouds that Jesus does in Rev 14 comes after the midpoint of Rev 13:14-15, and the Great Tribulation caused by Rev 1315-17.  This is congruent with the Olivet Discourse.  Likewise, in the opening broad overview of the end in Rev chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13), the Great Multitude show up in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.  The message that the Rapture happens after the midpoint abomination and Great Tribulation is consistent even unto Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-8.

 

The CONTEXT of the great crowd in Rev. 7 is a BREAK or intermission between the 6th and 7th seals. I like this to the curtain closing on a multiple act play. What happens behind the curtain when it closes? They "rearrange the set" to fit the next act. Well, before the 7th seal offically opens the 70th week of Daniel, TWO EVENTS must take place (rearranging the set). One, the 144,000 must get sealed for their protection. 2: the church must be taken to safety.

This is what is in Rev. 7. John watched the sealing of the 144,000, then saw the raptured church save in heaven.

What did John mean by "these are those who came out of great tribulation?" It only means that at the time of the rapture, tribulation will be great around the world - just like it is today. But John is NOT referring to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. They will come much later in the week.

God does not accomplish all the harvesting at one time. The pretrib rapture will be the first wave of harvest. Then the 144,000 a second wave. Then the resurrection of the Old Testament saints another wave. All these are harvests for the righteous. But there will be a harvest for the unjust: the battle of Armageddon, for one. This picture of Jesus on a cloud with a sickle is both very symbolic and also prophetic. These events do not happen at this point in time in John's narrative (which is just before the mark will begin being enforced.) In other words, it is NOT a coming, and it is NOT the rapture. God is not going to do ANY harvesting with a real sickle. It is symbolic.

The midpoint is NOT in chapter 13, it is at the 7th trumpet in chapter 11. The days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not begin in Revelation until chapter 15. (The warning not to take the mark is in chapter 14.)

[Marcus O'Reillius]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 before the 7th seal offically opens the 70th week of Daniel, 

This "fact" of yours, which forms the foundation for what follows, has no, real  basis in prophecy.

It is a conclusion you have drawn yourself.

[HAZARD]

 On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 7:31 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

The Rapture does struggle against these Scriptures, "And the beast was allowed to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation," (Revelation 13:7),

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Reading verse 8 shows True Christians, who's names are written in the book of life will not be overcome or be ruled over;

KJV. Rev 13: 7, And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
   

v. 8, And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, who's names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,"

Except true Christians, who's name's "ARE" written in the book of life! - Verse 8.

Are they raptured and in Heaven being protected?