Is Hell for Real?

[Hawkeye]

1 minute ago, LuftWaffle said:

Hi Hawkeye,

I've also become convinced that the traditional view of eternal conscious torment is incorrect and that the bible seems to rather clearly teach that immortality is granted only to the saved. I've never heard the term "modified annihilationism" though, what does it mean?

I prefer to avoid the term annihilation and focus on the (im)mortality aspect, so I like the name Conditional Immortality, because that avoid the red herring of whether the unsaved cease to exist.

modifued same term as Evangelical Conditionalism. Check out the site and they have a FB group  feel free to pm me

[LuftWaffle]

On 3/21/2017 at 5:01 PM, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Hell/Gehenna however is not Annihilationism as Scripture will attest

Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name

JWs and Seventh Day Adventists wrongly believe in Annihilation. But that one passage alone, and there are others, is plenty evidence enough to the contrary. It speaks of being tormented forever. Therefore, you are not annihilated. You don't cease to exist.

 

Would you believe me if I told you that most of the proof texts for eternal conscious torment including the one you cited above, upon closer examination seem to support the conditional immortality view better than it does the notion that the wicked will live forever in torment?

 

Cessation of existence isn't a necessary aspect of the view I hold.
In terms of SDAs and JWs also believing in annihilation, I'm a Trinitarian who mows the lawn on Saturdays

Edited March 23, 2017 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye said:

modifued same term as Evangelical Conditionalism. Check out the site and they have a FB group  feel free to pm me

ahh, ok.

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Would you believe me if I told you that most of the proof texts for eternal conscious torment including the one you cited above, upon closer examination seem to support the conditional immortality view better than it does the notion that the wicked will live forever in torment?

 

Cessation of existence isn't a necessary aspect of the view I hold.
In terms of SDAs and JWs also believing in annihilation, I'm a Trinitarian who mows the lawn on Saturdays

Why would accepting Christ as Savior have the eternal consequence of living with Christ forever, but rejecting Christ not have the eternal consequence of living separated from God for ever?

[LuftWaffle]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Why would accepting Christ as Savior have the eternal consequence of living with Christ forever, but rejecting Christ not have the eternal consequence of living separated from God for ever?

I believe the second death is eternal. The distinction is as follows, as I see it: for the traditionalist it is between going eternally to the happy place (heaven) or the sad place (hell), but for the conditionalist it is between living forever and being dead forever. Both consequences are eternal for both views.

That's the conditionalist hypothesis, and I think it has significant scriptural support. In fact, that seems to be the essence of the entire salvation story, that Christ purchased life for us.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

I believe the second death is eternal. The distinction is as follows, as I see it: for the traditionalist it is between going eternally to the happy place (heaven) or the sad place (hell), but for the conditionalist it is between living forever and being dead forever. Both consequences are eternal for both views.

That's the conditionalist hypothesis, and I think it has significant scriptural support. In fact, that seems to be the essence of the entire salvation story, that Christ purchased life for us.

Both are eternal, for sure.   My question is, why does accepting Christ result in eternal immortality, but rejecting Christ results in eternal extinction?  And does the Bible define eternal (or 2nd)  death as complete and utter cessation of existence?

[Guest shiloh357]

I will start another thread on traditionalism vs. conditionalism

[LuftWaffle]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

Both are eternal, for sure.   My question is, why does accepting Christ result in eternal immortality, but rejecting Christ results in eternal extinction?  And does the Bible define eternal (or 2nd)  death as complete and utter cessation of existence?

I'm not sure I see the problem with accepting Christ leading to eternal immortality, but rejecting Christ resulting in eternal death.

I want to be very clear that I'm not arguing cessation of existence. My view is that the unsaved will be killed/perish/destroyed, whether or not bits of their corpses remain are irrelevant to me. So, I'm not arguing for complete and utter cessation of existence, I'm simply arguing that everlasting life is a gift to the saved and that the unsaved will experience cessation of life.

[Omegaman 3.0]

18 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I will start another thread on traditionalism vs. conditionalism

Why? If I might ask. Why not just go to an existing thread on that topic, if this one is not suitable for you. Just wondering why people want to have so many parallel threads at times. I will pose this question in your new thread (which is how I came to be here anyway).

[TheMatrixHasU71]

1 hour ago, LuftWaffle said:

Would you believe me if I told you that most of the proof texts for eternal conscious torment including the one you cited above, upon closer examination seem to support the conditional immortality view better than it does the notion that the wicked will live forever in torment?

 

Cessation of existence isn't a necessary aspect of the view I hold.
In terms of SDAs and JWs also believing in annihilation, I'm a Trinitarian who mows the lawn on Saturdays

No they don't. The idea of weeping and gnashing of teeth and eternal torment are plenty clear enough here Be careful here because you are casting doubt as to the veracity of God's word just like Satan did when the serpent asked Eve Hath God said.....and ye shall not surely die. Same difference here. 

The soul doesn't die. The lake of fire would not even exist if there was such a thing as annihilationism or conditional immortality.