Jump to content
rollinTHUNDER

Rev. 12: Heavenly Sign to appear in 2017 - What could it mean?

Recommended Posts

There are a lot of debates about the scriptures concerning when the Rapture will occur – to some, if at all. Thanks to Perry Stone’s observations I offer my version.

God, “Declaring the end from the beginning…” Isa 46:10a

Genesis 8 – Outpouring of the Holy Spirit (dove) – Last Days pour out Spirit

Genesis 7 – Shaking of the Earth – Earthquakes in divers places

Genesis 6 – Signs of the Days of Noah – violence and evil therefore the love of many grow cold

Genesis 5 – Rapture of Enoch – Rapture of the church

Genesis 4 – Marking of Cain – Marking of God’s 144,000 and Mark of the Beast for the rest

Genesis 3 – Satan won over man – Satan loses over a Man

Genesis 2 – Perfect Paradise – Perfect Paradise

Genesis 1 

  • Time Begins – Time Ends;
  • God walked with man – God walks with man;
  • Tree of Life – Tree of Life heals the nations;
  • Adam and Eve – Jesus and His Bride;
  • No sickness or death – No more sickness or death;
  • Eternity Past – Eternity Future

First two chapters of the word of God are perfect. Alef; Alpha
Last two chapters of the word of God are perfect. Tav; Omega

Genesis – Nimrod one world government; tower of Babel
Revelation – Antichrist one world government; mystery Babylon; Babylon is destroyed

Isaiah 46:9-10 (KJV)
Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Revelation 22:13 (KJV)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

John 1:1-5 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:1-5 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

 

Really.  then explain this from Him....

Matthew 24:36 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

This is relative to a specific moment; the day of the Lord. Nothing else. No general conclusions about the decisions God makes to tell whom what can be drawn.

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

This is true but doesn't preclude information about the same time period being passed to others centuries or millennia before. And remember, this revelation of Jesus Christ given to him by the Father, was to show SERVANTS, not John exclusively. This allows for the fact that the Father knew the plan from the beginning, which He obviously did, and for the probability that Jesus told several people bits and parts, which he did, and only gave the full revelations to John, which he did.

Yeshua didn't give this information to Joel or Paul.  He gave it to John.  And He gave it after He had been given it by the Father.  By default, the Father didn't give it to Joel or Paul either.  The Father reveals these things thru the Son.  And John got this information in around 90 AD.  There is no way that Joel or Paul was referencing the 7 trumpets of Revelation.  

And how do you know when the Father gave this information to Jesus? Scripture doesn't say. Are you speculating that Jesus only got the info in 90 AD? That would be a stretch since scripture call Jesus Everlasting Father, the mighty God, Wonderful, Counselor. Maybe you missed that part? Scripture also records Jesus being there during creation and since Jesus is the First and Last I would think He knew everything except the day and hour when the Day of the Lord begins.

Come on, you are hurting yourself in arguing this way.  You are exhibiting poor reading comprehension.  My hope is all that is going on.  I hope it isn't dishonesty or being contentious.

Oh I'm definitely contending.  And I'm unconcerned in the highest degree over your judgement of my motives and intent. You are not a judge over me and your continued citations of scholars shows little sound judgement over your own thoughts. My comprehension of scripture extends to all of scripture related to the topic and the character of God. Men only penned scripture. The great God, who is from everlasting to everlasting inspired mankind to record what God saw fit to relate to all men. It is the acme of foolishness to demand God is limited by time or that men authored scripture. This is your mistake.

And Joel wasn't talking about the 7 trumpets of Revelation, nor the trumpet that Paul mentioned that was what was being referenced in my post.

You don't know that, you hope that's the case. Nothing specific in scripture demands your conclusion which is another mistake. You make sweeping assumptions and generalizations and ignore specifics. When scripture is specific it's shunted aside to make room for narrative. Good job. Let me show you the difference; Paul says, "at the last trump" That's it. No other reference. From this we cannot conclude either the 7 trumps of revelation or the Feast of Trumpets. However, Paul gives context, "and the dead shall rise". Well guess what? That's the end of the age! I know, crazy. Now why would Paul reference a day of rest when the point of 1 Cor 15:52 is raising the dead? Lev 23:24 says nothing about raising the dead and is only a memorial signified by the unspecified sounding of trumpets. The link doesn't exist. Here's an example of depth of comprehension from Hebrews: 

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses,

10 They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?(I know you won't understand this but I had to try)

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

And the last few chapters go on in the manner. Not once in Hebrews does Paul say the old ways should be looked to for guidance. In fact the opposite is presented, the old ways are gone, over. Nothing remaining, all fulfilled. Christ has come and reveals all things. But you go ahead and live in the past, it's probably for the best.

 

 The trumpet in Zion that Joel is referencing is Yom Kippur.   In Joel's case, the great trumpet that is associated with that feast,  which is the culmination of the Day of The Lord, whereas Paul is referencing the last trump of the Feast of Trumpets.

Another mistake about the feast of trumpets. You are referencing Jewish tradition from the rabbinical writing contained in the Talmud. Canon, which you love to rely on when it suits and conveniently ignore as necessary states, Lev. 23 "24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord."

There is no first or last trumpet mentioned in the word of God. It's a general sounding as a memorial. Your last trumpet idea on this day shows your adherence to the traditions of men rather than the truth of the Father.

 

Read the entire chapter of Joel.  The 30 days before Rosh Hashanah are called the Days of Return and Repentance.  Joel is doing  the same thing I am.... tying the fall feasts together with the Day of the Lord as I did. Objection: Speculation.

 Thanks for posting!

Notice this portion of Joel 2.....

Joel 2:16-17 (NKJV) Gather the people,
Sanctify the congregation,
Assemble the elders,
Gather the children and nursing babes;
Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber,
And the bride from her dressing room.

17 Let the priests, who minister to the Lord,
Weep between the porch and the altar;

This highlighted portion is Yeshua returning with His bride, the Church. Objection: Speculation. Where's the scripture that says this is Jesus returning to earth with believers? Scripture is specific about Jesus return in several places, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Rev., but not here.

 

The bride had entered her chambers at Rosh Hashanah previously, as reverenced in Isaiah 26:19-21.   The portion after that about the priests is a strong reference to Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement which is also a major fast day.  Isaiah references Rosh Hashanah, the feast day of resurrection and gathering of the righteous before the Day of the Lord....

You go ahead and live in your world of tradition. I refuse.

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain 

This is being hidden from the wrath of God, not GT. Notice what the passage says, "21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;" This is the wrath of God poured out right after, "Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise."

While Yeshua is indeed the 2nd person of the Triune God, there are some things that are reserved to the Father and not given to the son to know till the Father wants it known by Him.  The two verses at the top of this post make that case.

As far as I know the only thing hidden from everyone is the moment the Day of the Lord begins, this is what the referenced scripture speaks to, not a general group of secrets that fit a personal narrative. If you can prove from scripture that other things are hidden, specifically stated, not speculation, then please post them. Your above statement is pure conjecture excepting the moment of the Day of the Lord.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All of Matthew 24 is directed to Israel alone in the tribulation period

Those previously saved will be made immortal just before [Revelation 3:10]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Since you buried your comments inside of my text, that is Ok.  We will disagree.  I really am not worried in the least that you don't agree with me.  I will not agree with you, so we are equal.  

As far as being buried in Jewish tradition, Yeshua himself set the standard.  He observed Hannukah, which is not in the cannon that we have except for the reference of Him observing it.  Evidently the Lion of the Tribe of Judah felt that some traditions are valid.  I have no problem viewing the ones that are in the cannon the same way.  Jude, one of the brothers of Yeshua quoted from non-canonical books in his short letter.  Even Peter did likewise.  So given the standard of the Messiah and those writers, I feel in good company.

Edited by OldCoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

All of Matthew 24 is directed to Israel alone in the tribulation period

Those previously saved will be made immortal just before [Revelation 3:10]

Hebrew israelite movement........................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Are you saying that there is no pretrib rapture? Or that the church never goes to heaven at any time?

Yes, I am.   For two reasons; 1/ such a thing as a removal to heaven of the Church is not actually mentioned in the Bible. 

2/ God has told us His plan for His people in the end times and it is for them to be His witnesses and the Light to the nations. Skiving off to heaven is not an option. 

Re God's Throne: This is a spiritual concept, in another dimension. If God wills it, His Throne and the accompanying Beings, can be seen from the earth. Proved by Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts  7:56

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Keras said:

Yes, I am.   For two reasons; 1/ such a thing as a removal to heaven of the Church is not actually mentioned in the Bible. 

2/ God has told us His plan for His people in the end times and it is for them to be His witnesses and the Light to the nations. Skiving off to heaven is not an option. 

Re God's Throne: This is a spiritual concept, in another dimension. If God wills it, His Throne and the accompanying Beings, can be seen from the earth. Proved by Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts  7:56

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the
just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the
tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose
for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape
the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He
said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of,
Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before
the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John
14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture.
Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor.
15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to
escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things
through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul
explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or
second advent of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air
where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present
them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to
the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are
in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their
coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14;
Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly
Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but
both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the
Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The
Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until
after the tribulation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hazard, Looking at Bible verses from the perspective that there will be a rapture, then you get what you think will happen, as above. 

But from the perspective of what all the prophets actually do tell us about God's plans for His people, then there is a different picture. 

'escape' in Luke 21:36, is better translated as: pray that you be accounted worthy to pass safely through these things...Revised English Bible. There will be an escape from the Great Tribulation that happens during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, for the faithful Christians. Revelation 12:14. 

John 14:1-2, says nothing about going to heaven, it tells of the New Jerusalem, that will come to earth after the Millennium. 

The fanciful idea that the Church will accompany Jesus at His Return, is totally refuted by Matthew 25:31. Also Revelation 19:14 is specific; it is the angelic army of heaven that comes with Jesus. 

Its time to get away from Satan's lies and understand the truth of what will happen; your byline is appropriate - I threw the Truth and you yelled!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Keras said:

Hazard, Looking at Bible verses from the perspective that there will be a rapture, then you get what you think will happen, as above. 

But from the perspective of what all the prophets actually do tell us about God's plans for His people, then there is a different picture. 

'escape' in Luke 21:36, is better translated as: pray that you be accounted worthy to pass safely through these things...Revised English Bible. There will be an escape from the Great Tribulation that happens during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, for the faithful Christians. Revelation 12:14. 

John 14:1-2, says nothing about going to heaven, it tells of the New Jerusalem, that will come to earth after the Millennium. 

The fanciful idea that the Church will accompany Jesus at His Return, is totally refuted by Matthew 25:31. Also Revelation 19:14 is specific; it is the angelic army of heaven that comes with Jesus. 

Its time to get away from Satan's lies and understand the truth of what will happen; your byline is appropriate - I threw the Truth and you yelled!

 

1 Thess. 4:16-17, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
v. 17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Its not a fanciful idea of mine or anyone else's. Get the gist of Revelation sorted out in your mind and you may eventually see the truth.

 

The purpose of Revelation was to show, not hide from His servants, events from John's day into all eternity (Rev. 21-22). Events of the whole church age (Rev. 1-3) Events in Heaven (Rev. 4-5) Events of the future tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 6-19) Events of the Millennium (Rev. 20) Events of the eternal new heavens and the new earth (Rev. 21-22).

"Unto His servant John," The book was transmitted from God to Christ, to the angel, to John, to the churches, to us (Rev.1:11).

The key to interpretation of the book of Revelation, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev. 1:19). "The things which thou hast seen"; that is, Christ in the midst of the seven candlesticks (Rev. 1:12-18, 20), as seen by John before he began to write.

"The things which are:" that is, the things concerning to churches then existent and those which should exist throughout the Church Age to the rapture. This division takes in only Rev. 3. "The things which shall be hereafter"; that is, the things which shall come to pass after the rapture of the church. This division includes all of the events of Rev. 4-22. One has only to believe this threefold natural division as given by Christ to understand the book fully, especially as to the time of the fulfilment of all the things of each division. The moment these divisions are forgotten and the reader begins to disarrange them and insert certain things into the one or the other that are not a part of the division, he will become confused as to the divine order of these "things" which are so clearly given in consecutive order, and he will miss the true intent of these "things" written therein.

To further prove that everything in Rev. 4-22 must be after the churches, and there after the rapture of the church, we have this fact confirmed in Rev. 4:1. After John had recorded the vision of Christ in Rev. 1, completing the first division of the book, he was told in Rev. 4:1 that he was to see "things which MUST BE hereafter," that is, after the things of the churches of the second division of the book. Therefore, if everything from Rev. 4:1 on through the rest of the book MUST BE after the churches, then all the events of Rev. 4-22 must be after the churches. If they MUST BE after the churches, then they cannot happen during the time of the churches. If they cannot happen during the time of the churches, then the church is no longer on the Earth during the fulfilment of the things which MUST BE after the churches.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, HAZARD said:

1 Thess. 4:16-17, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
v. 17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Its not a fanciful idea of mine or anyone else's. Get the gist of Revelation sorted out in your mind and you may eventually see the truth.

I never denied the plain Words of  v 17. There will be a meeting with Jesus in the clouds as He Returns. Then those who remain, the survivors after the Great Tribulation, will be with Him in Jerusalem. This will be a transportation similar to what happened to Philip. Acts 8: 38 

Using this prophecy to prove a rapture to heaven of the Church, is a joke, as it actually refutes such a notion. 

The gist of Revelation is the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls; then the wrath of God is completed; Rev 15:1.  And the next prophesied event that we can expect, is the Sixth Seal. Be ready to call upon the Name of the Lord for His protection. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×