Is Maryology Idolatry?

[Spock]

I hope this is the right forum and is an allowable topic to discuss. I really would appreciate brotherly or sisterly dialog. I have had a long discussion with my Catholic brother about Mary this weekend and am walking away somewhat frustrated.  He kind of surprised me by telling me he has gone back to his previous beliefs regarding Mary: 

1. Immaculate Conception- Mary also born without sin just like Jesus

2. Was without sin - just like Jesus

3. Perpetual virginity- never had sex

4. Assumption- did not die, but ascended into Heaven 

5. Co- Mediatrix - Jesus and Mary both mediate man's sin

6. Mary receives prayer because she is tender and compassionate and God listens to her and always gives her what she asks. 

 I believe this is idolatry which as you know violates the First Commandment. So my questions stem from that assumption: 

1. Do you believe this veneration of Mary is idolatry?

2. If so, is it possible to both believe on Jesus for his atonement, and also believe in all this stuff regarding Mary, and still be saved?  In other words, can you be both a God worshipper and an idol worshipper simultaneously? 

I hope this isn't too confusing. I'm planning my next strategy in our next dialog and I need to have a firm grasp on how I view my brother's standing. 

Thanks,

Spock

edit: one more thing, please do not use this thread to "argue" the merits of these six Catholic doctrines. I'm not interested in discussing that. If you feel the need to discuss that, start your own thread. Thank you. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Spock

[simplejeff]

Yes, it is idolatry and it is all immersed in idolatry also. (the complete system, not just some of it).

It is or has been believed/  held by billions relying on "tradition" alone,  over GOD'S WORD,  and contradicting GOD'S WORD,

and contradicting all the testimony of the Apostles and disciples.  

It's not worth much of a discussion on this forum because , well,  even though GOD'S WORD IS the ATHORITY,  

those who believe more in tradition opposed to GOD'S WORD have no [real] limit (to what they can post about it).

A lot of threads , apparently, for many years on many threads in many forums(not just here, but on most forums open to non-Biblical traditions) ,  have been started "as if" to ask about the subject,  but actually turns out not searching for what the BIBLE SAYS,  but rather to support the tradition and spread it's harm.

[Spock]

11 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Yes, it is idolatry and it is all immersed in idolatry also. (the complete system, not just some of it).

It is or has been believed/  held by billions relying on "tradition" alone,  over GOD'S WORD,  and contradicting GOD'S WORD,

and contradicting all the testimony of the Apostles and disciples.  

It's not worth much of a discussion on this forum because , well,  even though GOD'S WORD IS the ATHORITY,  

those who believe more in tradition opposed to GOD'S WORD have no [real] limit (to what they can post about it).

A lot of threads , apparently, for many years on many threads in many forums(not just here, but on most forums open to non-Biblical traditions) ,  have been started "as if" to ask about the subject,  but actually turns out not searching for what the BIBLE SAYS,  but rather to support the tradition and spread it's harm.

Thanks Jeff.  Because I appreciate your response, would you mind answering my second question also. Thanks. 

[simplejeff]

In REVELATION it is written that there are no idolators in heaven.  

Sound strict? 

Same as the rest of the list YHWH says is never in heaven.  Yes,  very strict.  JESUS DIED!  to set people free from all that, and JESUS was RESURRECTED to give everyone hope for eternal life who believes in HIM.

 

[Spock]

54 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

In REVELATION it is written that there are no idolators in heaven.  

Sound strict? 

Same as the rest of the list YHWH says is never in heaven.  Yes,  very strict.  JESUS DIED!  to set people free from all that, and JESUS was RESURRECTED to give everyone hope for eternal life who believes in HIM.

 

Wow! I forgot about that passage. Thanks Jeff.  

My flesh wants to believe both can coexist because I love my brother and he talks about his trust in Jesus for atonement, knowing he died for his sins.  He just also happens to trust in Mary, although obviously not for atonement, but for other things. 

This has confused me, or perhaps I am too involved in this to think clearly.

thanks again Jeff.

spock

[simplejeff]

"The effectual fervent prayer of the righteous man availeth much. "   

Yes,  continual fervent prayer,  without ceasing, is needed. (and difficult to accomplish).

For understanding.  For Peace.  For Freedom.   For WISDOM and experiential knowledge in Y'SHUA (JESUS). 

All in all,  for TRUTH.

[Fidelibus]

15 hours ago, Spock said:

I hope this is the right forum and is an allowable topic to discuss. I really would appreciate brotherly or sisterly dialog. I have had a long discussion with my Catholic brother about Mary this weekend and am walking away somewhat frustrated.  He kind of surprised me by telling me he has gone back to his previous beliefs regarding Mary: 

Hello Spock. (I'm a bit of a Trekky myself)  Before my conversion from Protestantism to the Catholic Church, I too accused Catholics of Idolatry. However, After many years of of being taught this by non-Catholic Pastors, I found out through my own studies, this was not the case at all. One must not confuse Maryolatry with Maryology. Mary is never worshiped in Catholicism.

I would be happy to give you the Catholic perspective of your list.

1. Immaculate Conception- Mary also born without sin just like Jesus

It wasn’t a matter of what God the Father did for Mary, but what he did for Jesus. What so many people don’t understand is that the Immaculate Conception of Mary is all about Jesus. It was because he was to take on his human nature in her womb that God deigned her to be free of all sin and therefore “full of grace” (Lk 1:28). It would be unthinkable, given the revelation that we have in Scripture and Tradition, for him to be conceived in anything but a holy place. David, Abraham, and Moses weren’t called to give birth to Jesus.

2. Was without sin - just like Jesus

For a short answer due to time constraints I'll say, Nowhere in Scripture does it say Mary ever sinned.

I can elaborate more on these if you'd wish

[ravindran]

15 hours ago, Spock said:

I hope this is the right forum and is an allowable topic to discuss. I really would appreciate brotherly or sisterly dialog. I have had a long discussion with my Catholic brother about Mary this weekend and am walking away somewhat frustrated.  He kind of surprised me by telling me he has gone back to his previous beliefs regarding Mary: 

1. Immaculate Conception- Mary also born without sin just like Jesus

2. Was without sin - just like Jesus

3. Perpetual virginity- never had sex

4. Assumption- did not die, but ascended into Heaven 

5. Co- Mediatrix - Jesus and Mary both mediate man's sin

6. Mary receives prayer because she is tender and compassionate and God listens to her and always gives her what she asks. 

 I believe this is idolatry which as you know violates the First Commandment. So my questions stem from that assumption: 

1. Do you believe this veneration of Mary is idolatry?

2. If so, is it possible to both believe on Jesus for his atonement, and also believe in all this stuff regarding Mary, and still be saved?  In other words, can you be both a God worshipper and an idol worshipper simultaneously? 

I hope this isn't too confusing. I'm planning my next strategy in our next dialog and I need to have a firm grasp on how I view my brother's standing. 

Thanks,

Spock

edit: one more thing, please do not use this thread to "argue" the merits of these six Catholic doctrines. I'm not interested in discussing that. If you feel the need to discuss that, start your own thread. Thank you. 

Hello Spock. Every point you have mentioned, comes from tradition and not Word of God. That is the problem. Bible does not confirm any of these things. Going by Bible, maryology is idolatry.

regarding your other questions, I truly believe there are many Catholics who are truly saved and we would see them in heaven. Because Salvation is not based on how good a life we live. Salvation is from God. No one is perfect. And we all have our own idols.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Fidelibus said:

Hello Spock. (I'm a bit of a Trekky myself)  Before my conversion from Protestantism to the Catholic Church, I too accused Catholics of Idolatry. However, After many years of of being taught this by non-Catholic Pastors, I found out through my own studies, this was not the case at all. One must not confuse Maryolatry with Maryology. Mary is never worshiped in Catholicism.

I would be happy to give you the Catholic perspective of your list.

 

 

It wasn’t a matter of what God the Father did for Mary, but what he did for Jesus. What so many people don’t understand is that the Immaculate Conception of Mary is all about Jesus. It was because he was to take on his human nature in her womb that God deigned her to be free of all sin and therefore “full of grace” (Lk 1:28). It would be unthinkable, given the revelation that we have in Scripture and Tradition, for him to be conceived in anything but a holy place. David, Abraham, and Moses weren’t called to give birth to Jesus.

 

 

For a short answer due to time constraints I'll say, Nowhere in Scripture does it say Mary ever sinned.

I can elaborate more on these if you'd wish

Thank you for your response, but as I mentioned at the bottom of my original post, I'm not interested in discussing the merits of these claims/doctrines promulgated by the Catholic religion.  

Cheers,

spock

[angels4u]

16 hours ago, Spock said:

I hope this is the right forum and is an allowable topic to discuss. I really would appreciate brotherly or sisterly dialog. I have had a long discussion with my Catholic brother about Mary this weekend and am walking away somewhat frustrated.  He kind of surprised me by telling me he has gone back to his previous beliefs regarding Mary: 

1. Immaculate Conception- Mary also born without sin just like Jesus

2. Was without sin - just like Jesus

3. Perpetual virginity- never had sex

4. Assumption- did not die, but ascended into Heaven 

5. Co- Mediatrix - Jesus and Mary both mediate man's sin

6. Mary receives prayer because she is tender and compassionate and God listens to her and always gives her what she asks. 

 I believe this is idolatry which as you know violates the First Commandment. So my questions stem from that assumption: 

1. Do you believe this veneration of Mary is idolatry?

2. If so, is it possible to both believe on Jesus for his atonement, and also believe in all this stuff regarding Mary, and still be saved?  In other words, can you be both a God worshipper and an idol worshipper simultaneously? 

I hope this isn't too confusing. I'm planning my next strategy in our next dialog and I need to have a firm grasp on how I view my brother's standing. 

Thanks,

Spock

edit: one more thing, please do not use this thread to "argue" the merits of these six Catholic doctrines. I'm not interested in discussing that. If you feel the need to discuss that, start your own thread. Thank you. 

 

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Nr 1The Ten Commandments
…3"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

New American Standard Bi

 

Matthew Henry Commentary
20:3-11 The first four of the ten commandments, commonly called the FIRST table, tell our duty to God. It was fit that those should be put first, because man had a Maker to love, before he had a neighbour to love. It cannot be expected that he should be true to his brother, who is false to his God. The first commandment concerns the object of worship, JEHOVAH, and him only. The worship of creatures is here forbidden. Whatever comes short of perfect love, gratitude, reverence, or worship, breaks this commandment. Whatsoever ye do, do all the glory of God. The second commandment refers to the worship we are to render to the Lord our God. It is forbidden to make any image or picture of the Deity, in any form, or for any purpose; or to worship any creature, image, or picture. But the spiritual import of this command extends much further. All kinds of superstition are here forbidden, and the using of mere human inventions in the worship of God. The third commandment concerns the manner of worship, that it be with all possible reverence and seriousness. All false oaths are forbidden. All light appealing to God, all profane cursing, is a horrid breach of this command. It matters not whether the word of God, or sacred things, all such-like things break this commandment, and there is no profit, honour, or pleasure in them. The Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. The form of the fourth commandment, Remember, shows that it was not now first given, but was known by the people before. One day in seven is to be kept holy. Six days are allotted to worldly business, but not so as to neglect the service of God, and the care of our souls. On those days we must do all our work, and leave none to be done on the sabbath day. Christ allowed works of necessity, charity, and piety; for the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath, Mr 2:27; but all works of luxury, vanity, or self-indulgence in any form, are forbidden. Trading, paying wages, settling accounts, writing letters of business, worldly studies, trifling visits, journeys, or light conversation, are not keeping this day holy to the Lord. Sloth and indolence may be a carnal, but not a holy rest. The sabbath of the Lord should be a day of rest from worldly labour, and a rest in the service of God. The advantages from the due keeping of this holy day, were it only to the health and happiness of mankind, with the time it affords for taking care of the soul, show the excellency of this commandment. The day is blessed; men are blessed by it, and in it. The blessing and direction to keep holy are not limited to the seventh day, but are spoken of the sabbath day.

 

Nr 3:New International Version

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one.

3:9-18 Here again is shown that all mankind are under the guilt of sin, as a burden; and under the government and dominion of sin, as enslaved to it, to work wickedness. This is made plain by several passages of Scripture from the Old Testament, which describe the corrupt and depraved state of all men, till grace restrain or change them. Great as our advantages are, these texts describe multitudes who call themselves Christians. Their principles and conduct prove that there is no fear of God before their eyes. And where no fear of God is, no good is to be looked for.Matthew Henry Commentary

Nr 3The Gospel of Mark 6:3 and the Gospel of Matthew 13:55-56 state that James, Joses (or Joseph), Judas, and Simon were the brothers of Jesus, the son of Mary. The same verses also mention unnamed sisters of Jesus.

So Mary did have sex but not before the birth of Jesus:

Luke 1:27–28 (

27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

 

Nr 4 

Acts 1:14 (ESV)

14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.

Ater Jesus death the Bible doesn't mention again but she did die naturally otherwise the Bible would have mentioned this. 

Nr  5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, Tim.2:5

Matthew Henry Commentary
2:1-7 The disciples of Christ must be praying people; all, without distinction of nation, sect, rank, or party. Our duty as Christians, is summed up in two words; godliness, that is, the right worshipping of God; and honesty, that is, good conduct toward all men. These must go together: we are not truly honest, if we are not godly, and do not render to God his due; and we are not truly godly, if not honest. What is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, we should abound in. There is one Mediator, and that Mediator gave himself a ransom for all. And this appointment has been made for the benefit of the Jews and the Gentiles of every nation; that all who are willing may come in this way, to the mercy-seat of a pardoning God, to seek reconciliation with him. Sin had made a quarrel between us and God; Jesus Christ is the Mediator who makes peace. He is a ransom that was to be known in due time. In the Old Testament times, his sufferings, and the glory that should follow, were spoken of as things to be revealed in the last times. Those who are saved must come to the knowledge of the truth, for that is God's appointed way to save sinners: if we do not know the truth, we cannot be ruled by it.

Nr 6

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

 2 Tim. 2:5

 

2:1-7 The disciples of Christ must be praying people; all, without distinction of nation, sect, rank, or party. Our duty as Christians, is summed up in two words; godliness, that is, the right worshipping of God; and honesty, that is, good conduct toward all men. These must go together: we are not truly honest, if we are not godly, and do not render to God his due; and we are not truly godly, if not honest. What is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, we should abound in. There is one Mediator, and that Mediator gave himself a ransom for all. And this appointment has been made for the benefit of the Jews and the Gentiles of every nation; that all who are willing may come in this way, to the mercy-seat of a pardoning God, to seek reconciliation with him. Sin had made a quarrel between us and God; Jesus Christ is the Mediator who makes peace. He is a ransom that was to be known in due time. In the Old Testament times, his sufferings, and the glory that should follow, were spoken of as things to be revealed in the last times. Those who are saved must come to the knowledge of the truth, for that is God's appointed way to save sinners: if we do not know the truth, we cannot be ruled by it.

 I know that all that Mary worship is idolotry.. 

I believe only God knows the hear and is our Judge,we can never say if somebody who does believe in Jesus and accept Him as his Savior is lost ,we're in no position to judge..

I hope this will help you Spock?