Jump to content
IGNORED

Genesis 1 & 2


Guest

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  711
  • Content Per Day:  0.28
  • Reputation:   266
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  04/12/2017
  • Status:  Offline

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, shiloh357.

Simple. Look at the evidence. Look at what God said:

Genesis 9:1-17
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. 
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. 

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man. 

7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." 

8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you — the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you — every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." 

12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth." 

17 So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth." 
NIV

Then, look back at the Creation:

Genesis 1:29-30
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground — everything that has the breath of life in it — I give every green plant for food." And it was so. 
NIV

THAT was their normal diet before the Flood.

 

It shows they weren't "supposed" to eat meat then - but it does not show that post-flood wicked mankind "didn't" eat meat before the flood. And since "all flesh" had corrupted its ways both man and animal in Genesis 6 -- calling for their destruction... it is not at all certain that animals were sticking to a vegetarian diet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Mars Hill
  • Followers:  7
  • Topic Count:  87
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  3,795
  • Content Per Day:  1.36
  • Reputation:   6
  • Days Won:  3
  • Joined:  07/30/2016
  • Status:  Offline

On 5/9/2017 at 6:44 AM, Guest said:

In my study of Genesis 1 and 2 there have been some scholars who say that there are actually two different times man was created. Other scholars believe Genesis 2 goes into more detail of Genesis 1. I believe that Genesis 1:26 was actually the trinity speaking, one of the first prophecies of Jesus Christ, when it says Let Us create man in our image...Elohim bera Let Us create. Elohim plural for God and bera singular verb for to create. What's interesting about this I founid is that the Hebrew verb noun agreement is stricter than the English so the author was çlearly trying to convey the Trinity in this passage.

It's interesting in Genesis 2:4 it does say this is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day the Lord God made earth and heaven. So it definitely does seem like a review and not a 2nd creation of a different creation story. I'm wondering if in 2:4 it isn't talking about the period of the dinosaurs when everything was extremely tropical, humid, and the atmosphere was encased over by clouds but not saturated enough for rain? Because it says, "a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground". Now is this literal for the environment of the earth or could it be something else? In Hebrew according to one scholar it's actually a defiling mist and represents Satan being clearly present on the earth during the beginning of creation. What do you think?

 

Its interesting that God told them to "replenish the earth".

To replenish does not mean to do something for the first time...but rather it means to do it AGAIN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  22
  • Topic Count:  1,294
  • Topics Per Day:  0.21
  • Content Count:  31,762
  • Content Per Day:  5.26
  • Reputation:   9,760
  • Days Won:  115
  • Joined:  09/14/2007
  • Status:  Offline

Transliteration
male'
Pronunciation
mä·lā' (Key)
 
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
A primitive root

TWOT Reference: 1195

KJV Translation Count — Total: 249x
The KJV translates Strong's H4390 in the following manner: fill (107x), full (48x), fulfil (28x), consecrate (15x), accomplish (7x), replenish (7x), wholly (6x), set (6x), expired (3x), fully (2x), gather (2x), overflow (2x), satisfy (2x), miscellaneous (14x).
Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. to fill, be full

    1. (Qal)

      1. to be full

        1. fulness, abundance (participle)

        2. to be full, be accomplished, be ended

      2. to consecrate, fill the hand

    2. (Niphal)

      1. to be filled, be armed, be satisfied

      2. to be accomplished, be ended

    3. (Piel)

      1. to fill

      2. to satisfy

      3. to fulfil, accomplish, complete

      4. to confirm

    4. (Pual) to be filled

    5. (Hithpael) to mass themselves against

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,541
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

All that states is that man was permitted to eat meat.  You have nothing from Scripture that states that animals were herbivorous before the flood.

Shalom, shiloh357.

Amazing. You can look right at it - just lines above what you typed - and MISS it!

Try again:

Genesis 1:29-30
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground — everything that has the breath of life in it — I give every green plant for food." And it was so. 
NIV

You still want to ADAMANTLY tell me that "You have nothing from Scripture that states that animals were herbivorous before the flood"?

Please, WAKE UP!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest shiloh357
1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, shiloh357.

Amazing. You can look right at it - just lines above what you typed - and MISS it!

Try again:

Genesis 1:29-30
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground — everything that has the breath of life in it — I give every green plant for food." And it was so. 
NIV

You still want to ADAMANTLY tell me that "You have nothing from Scripture that states that animals were herbivorous before the flood"?

Please, WAKE UP!

That passage is prior to the Fall in the Garden.   To clarify, you have no passages that say that animals did not meat after the fall and before the flood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,541
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

7 hours ago, BobRyan said:

It shows they weren't "supposed" to eat meat then - but it does not show that post-flood wicked mankind "didn't" eat meat before the flood. And since "all flesh" had corrupted its ways both man and animal in Genesis 6 -- calling for their destruction... it is not at all certain that animals were sticking to a vegetarian diet.

Shalom, BobRyan.

Look, it's simple enough. The animals - including the lions, tigers, panthers, leopards, wolves, hawks, eagles, and yes, allosaurs, spinosaurs, and even the tyrannosauri rex were ALL plant-eaters. It would do you well to investigate this claim, because it is truly fascinating! Did you know, for instance, that the T-Rex's teeth were not suited to eating meat? They were CERATED and spaced apart. Although they were 6-to-12-inch-long teeth, they only were embedded in the jawbone an INCH! If they tried to tear meat out of some animal, they would tear their teeth out of their heads instead! One Creationist scientist reported that they would serve better to rake leaves out of trees!

We're told in Isaiah that the lion - an obvious carnivore today - would eat straw like an ox (or a bullock)!

Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD. 
NIV

Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV

What do you suppose the wolf is feeding upon if it feeds with the lamb? How about grass?

What an animal feeds upon is INSTINCTIVE; it's not a LEARNED RESPONSE! What do dogs eat in the early morning hours when the dew is still on the ground? They eat GRASS, particularly the stalks of grass going to seed!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,541
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That passage is prior to the Fall in the Garden.   To clarify, you have no passages that say that animals did not meat after the fall and before the flood.

Shalom, shiloh357.

Yes, and you have NOTHING to say that animals DID eat meat after the Fall and before the Flood, either! To say that animals were corrupted and then began to "stray from their diets" is CONJECTURE AT BEST! NOTHING in Genesis 6 suggests such an interpretation! In fact, the word "corrupted" is translated from the Hebrew word vaatishaacheet from...

OT:7843 shaachat (shaw-khath'); a primitive root; to decay, i.e. (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively):
KJV - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler,  utterly, waste (-r).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

His "beef" is with MANKIND, and God is going to destroy the Earth and all air-breathing animals WITH THEM!

Again, like I said to BobRyan above, "What an animal feeds upon is INSTINCTIVE; it's not a LEARNED RESPONSE!"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,541
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

9 minutes ago, Yowm said:

HALOT the 'authority' of Hebrew lexicons doesn't seem to indicate it so.

121  אֵד 

אֵד, sffx. אֵדוֹ: JArm.b אידותא sea-foam )Perles OLZ 21:67); Gn 26 Sept. πηγή, Aq. ἐπιβλυσμός gush forth, Jb 3627 Sept. νεφέλη, 3630 cj. for אוֹרוֹ, cf. Sept. Theod.; lw. < Akk. eduÒ inundation < Sum. a-deÃ-a flood from the deep (Speiser BASOR 140:9ff; AHw. 187; Kaiser 101ff: Gn 26 the subterranean stream of fresh water, groundwater (?), Jb 3627 and cj. 30 the celestial stream (:: alt. mist, Arb. ÀijaÒd). † 

or Mounce...

[116] אֵד ʼēd 2x stream, fresh water that moves from a higher to lower place; in some contexts this may be an artesian spring [108] (MED)

As I said to JohnD in the topic "Doubt,"

First of all, let's distinguish between water vapor (which is a true gas) and a cloud:

A cloud is defined as...

  Quote

What are clouds?
A cloud is a large collection of very tiny droplets of water or ice crystals. The droplets are so small and light that they can float in the air. 

How are clouds formed?
All air contains water, but near the ground it is usually in the form of an invisible gas called water vaporWhen warm air rises, it expands and cools. Cool air can't hold as much water vapor as warm air, so some of the vapor condenses onto tiny pieces of dust that are floating in the air and forms a tiny droplet around each dust particle. When billions of these droplets come together they become a visible cloud.

This information comes from Weather Wiz Kids. Since there's nothing we can do about dust particles in the atmosphere (although the original air was fairly dust free), we have to look at the temperature of the air and extrapolate what a "vapor canopy" means. If this were not a true water vapor canopy, then we would not be able to see the stars through it because there would be no difference between this "vapor canopy" and a cloud. Thick clouds we know about. We also know that, as they thicken with more and more droplets of water, those droplets of water collide and stick together (water adhesion) until the amount of water is too heavy to be supported by the breezes and winds in the air and they fall to the ground as rain. This, we know, did NOT occur before the Flood. Therefore, this water vapor could NEVER reach the condensation stage! If it could, then it would eventually rain. Clouds REQUIRE this condensation to exist. Therefore, clouds as we know them did NOT exist.

Thus, the weather was BACKWARDS before the Flood. Follow:

For there to be a "mist" such that...

Genesis 2:5-6
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
KJV

... then this "mist" or "fog" would only have been formed by cool conditions meeting with the ever-warm, water-vapor filled air, such as a cool ground in contact with the warm air. This would have happened at NIGHT, probably (from a Westerner's perspective) in very early morning (2 a.m.) until the dawn when the sun began to heat the ground! Also, we can't neglect the possibility that the ground waters may have been under pressure before the Flood, allowing for...

Genesis 7:11
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
KJV

And, this pressure may have increased at night with the cooler earth, allowing more water to rise and water the earth. This "mist" or "fog" is NOT like the "clouds" we have today at all!

The atmosphere back then was different, too. The gases in the atmosphere did not rarify with height as they do today. Today, we can go hundreds of miles out and still find molecules from the earth's atmosphere.

Not so with the skies before the Flood: These skies, this atmosphere, was TRAPPED between the waters below the atmosphere (the "seas") and the waters above the atmosphere. This kept the the atmosphere warm throughout!

The reason why we can say (as above), "when warm air rises, it expands and cools," is because of the decrease in atmosphere pressure at higher altitudes. Indeed, we call the altitude when condensation begins the "dew point." It's seen as the flat underside of the white cumulus clouds.

In the world before the Flood, the "dew point" was always above "the waters above the skies," UNTIL that fateful day when God lowered it BELOW those "waters above the skies," probably with an explosion when all the fountains of the great deep - under pressure - were broken up and the pressure released. Then, "the windows of heaven were opened" and the deluge began.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest shiloh357
12 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, shiloh357.

Yes, and you have NOTHING to say that animals DID eat meat after the Fall and before the Flood, either!

 

You put the burden of proof on yourself by saying they did not eat meat before the flood.   I am responding to your claim.  I made no claim one way or the other.  I don't have prove what I never said. I simply question your claim.  

Quote

To say that animals were corrupted and then began to "stray from their diets" is CONJECTURE AT BEST! NOTHING in Genesis 6 suggests such an interpretation! In fact, the word "corrupted" is translated from the Hebrew word vaatishaacheet from...

The fall of man corrupted the entire earth, even the animal kingdom.  It explains why when the curse is partially lifted during the Messianic reign of Jesus that the lion will eat straw like an ox and the wolf will lie down with the Lamb.   The earth, will at least partially, return to some of the pre-fall conditions during that time.

It indicates that animals will return to being herbivorous.

So I continue to challenge your claim that animals did not eat meat until after the Fall.  It is just not something you can really support from Scripture.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,541
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,427
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

12 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You put the burden of proof on yourself by saying they did not eat meat before the flood.   I am responding to your claim.  I made no claim one way or the other.  I don't have prove what I never said. I simply question your claim.  

The fall of man corrupted the entire earth, even the animal kingdom.  It explains why when the curse is partially lifted during the Messianic reign of Jesus that the lion will eat straw like an ox and the wolf will lie down with the Lamb.   The earth, will at least partially, return to some of the pre-fall conditions during that time.

It indicates that animals will return to being herbivorous.

So I continue to challenge your claim that animals did not eat meat until after the Fall.  It is just not something you can really support from Scripture.

Shabbat shalom, shiloh257.

Well, too bad. I'm just going to pass on the burden of proof to the one who originally made a claim, BobRyan. He's the one who originally said, ...

10 hours ago, BobRyan said:

And since "all flesh" had corrupted its ways both man and animal in Genesis 6 -- calling for their destruction... it is not at all certain that animals were sticking to a vegetarian diet.

So, BobRyan must prove that animals weren't sticking to a vegetarian diet between the Fall and the Flood.

Personally, I don't think that's possible to prove. I'll take the Null Hypothesis.

What I've stated has been the acceptable, orthodox position long before modern man discovered the existence of dinosaurs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...