Identifying signs and symbols and their placement in scripture

[wingnut-]

 

1 minute ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Much is revealed in the NT about the immortality of those who follow the Lord to various groupings, but it is all the same .... He will first immortalize His own and then He will bring His tribulation and wrath upon an unbelieving world

And even some will repent during the tribulation and will be saved .... you should know this 

 

That passage from I Corinthians tells you the order, don't you see it?

 

I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

 

So we have Jesus the firstfruits, as in He is the firstfruits.......

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits,

 

See there, each in order, Christ resurrected (an event from the gospels)

 

I Corinthians 15:23  afterward

 

meaning following Christ's resurrection

 

I Corinthians 15:23  those who are Christ’s

 

That is all believers

 

I Corinthians 15:23  at His coming

 

That is the when, at His coming.

 

 

[Daniel 11:36]

The Lord is present right now .... He is just waiting to first call for His own [Revelation 3:10]

He will do this when He is ready [2 Peter 3:8-9]

Both the dead in Christ and those living at the time will be made immortal together at the same moment [Revelation 7:9-17]

And He will save and protect [seal] His 144000 of Israel for their witness during the tribulation period

.... these He will personally lead [Revelation 14:1-7]

Some will repent and be saved during the tribulation .... those martyred will be resurrected at the end of the period [Revelation 20:4]

Those saved and still living will enter and populate His millennial kingdom as mortals [Matthew 25:31-46]

Those who have already been raised to immortality will rule with Him

You should already know this

Edited May 16, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

I understood Marilyn's answers just fine, maybe you should compare yours to hers for clarification.

Maybe you need to study harder.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Lord is present right now .... He is just waiting to first call for His own [Revelation 3:10]

He will do this when He is ready [2 Peter 3:8-9]

Both the dead in Christ and those living at the time will be made immortal together at the same moment [Revelation 7:9-17]

And He will save and protect [seal] His 144000 of Israel for their witness during the tribulation period

.... these He will personally lead [Revelation 14:1-7]

Some will repent and be saved during the tribulation .... those martyred will be resurrected at the end of the period [Revelation 20:4]

Those saved and still living will enter and populate His millennial kingdom as mortals [Matthew 25:31-46]

Those who have already been raised to immortality will rule with Him

You should already know this

 

I guess you didn't digest the verse from Corinthians, only one event left, at His coming.

[wingnut-]

1 minute ago, Revelation Man said:

Maybe you need to study harder.

 

Yes, I'm sure that's it.  Never seen the ol' "I don't have an answer so I'll insult the other guy" tactic before 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"The gathering is found in the gospel of Matthew, chapter 24.  The entire premise of the left behind theology is found there as well, and you yourself have repeatedly stated that it is indeed what you call the rapture"

 

There is no rapture in Matthew 24 .... this idea is bogus

The Lord is speaking to Israel alone in this discourse and the nation's 70th week experience 

Some of Israel will be saved during the coming tribulation, but those before will be made immortal as stated for example in [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58] 

So there won't be any Messianic Jews? Of course there will, so if Jesus was asked about what will happen, he has to cover all the bases. There will be Messianic Jews who are Raptured, and the 90-95 percent who go through Jacobs Troubles.

[Daniel 11:36]

Can you be more specific Revelation Man

What are you trying to say?

[wingnut-]

17 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Lord is present right now .... He is just waiting to first call for His own [Revelation 3:10]

 

 

Hello Daniel,

Yes, the Lord is present in the form of the Holy Spirit.  Regarding the passage from Revelation 3:10, you do realize that this letter is to one of 7 churches correct?  I want you to look at something you find in regards to these churches.

To the church in Ephesus:

 

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

 

To the church in Smyrna:

 

Revelation 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’

 

To the church in Pergamum:

 

Revelation 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

 

To the church in Thyatira:

 

Revelation 2:29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

 

To the church in Sardis:

 

Revelation 3:6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

 

To the church in Philadelphia:

 

Revelation 3:13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

 

To the church in Laodicea:

 

Revelation 3:22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

 

This is what the Spirit says to the churches, in each instance though the letter is to a church, it says churches, as in plural.  You will find this here as well.

 

Revelation 13:9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

This is the same Spirit still addressing the same churches from chapters 2 and 3.  In those chapters you can read where He talks to these churches about overcoming to the end, and in chapter 13 they are taken into captivity and killed during the 3 1/2 year period the beast is reigning, and this is the patience and faith of the saints.  Those who are wearing the armor of God will do just that, those who love their lives too much will take the mark of the beast.

 

16 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

He will do this when He is ready

 

Agreed, and what else does Peter say about that?

 

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

Peter also speaks about the thief, the same symbol used by Matthew, Luke, Paul, and John which was originally given to us by Jesus in Matthew 24.

 

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f]your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

 

From Luke...

Luke 12:39  But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

 

From Paul...

I Thessalonians 5:2  For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

 

In Revelation...

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

Just prior to the battle of Armageddon.

 

 

16 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Both the dead in Christ and those living at the time will be made immortal together at the same moment

 

Each in order according to Paul.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

Paul says here that those who are still alive will not precede (come before) those who are already dead.  The dead in Christ rise first.

 

I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

THEN, the living will join those who died prior to His coming in the air.  Those who are already dead come out of heaven with Him, because that is where their souls have been waiting for this day.  They receive their incorruptible bodies and those still alive receive their incorruptible bodies and meet them in the air, not in heaven.  It says we shall always be with the Lord, and the Lord is on His way to earth, those who were alive go up and come right back down incorruptible.

 

16 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

And He will save and protect [seal] His 144000 of Israel for their witness during the tribulation period

 

They are not witnessing, they are hidden away in the wilderness under God's protection.  They are sealed because they are not yet believers which is why the Lord seals them, just like the blood of the Lamb protected them in Egypt from God's judgments.  Believers don't require a seal, because we already have the seal of the Holy Spirit.  This goes on for the entire 3 1/2 years as stated in Revelation 12.

 

Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

 

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

 

3 1/2 years out of harms way, not witnessing, being witnessed to by the Holy Spirit.

 

16 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Some will repent and be saved during the tribulation

 

This is the only instance in the book of Revelation that shows anyone repenting, and it is a result of what they experienced following the second woe, not a result of anyone witnessing to them.

 

Revelation 11:13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

 

16 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

those martyred will be resurrected at the end of the period

 

Those martyred will be among the first, the dead in Christ rise first, and then follow Him out of heaven at His coming.  You can find them in heaven here in the book of Revelation.

 

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

Also you find them here....

 

Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

No longer alive physically, they are asleep, or dead.  You see them given their white robes in the passage from Revelation 6, where it tells us specifically that they were killed for the Word of God and their testimony.  They are still waiting for their incorruptible bodies which Paul tells us we all receive in the same event, His coming.

 

17 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Those saved and still living will enter and populate His millennial kingdom as mortals

 

Then why does Paul say that those who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the clouds?

 

I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

Outside of the one instance in Revelation that I posted here, you won't find anywhere that people repent, in fact you find the opposite.

 

Revelation 9:20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

That is everyone left, the rest of mankind, and they DID NOT REPENT.  And take a good look at what they do here...

 

Revelation 11:10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

 

This is the people on earth celebrating the death of the two witnesses, rejoicing, partying, and giving each other gifts.  Just like the days of Noah.  This idea of some wave of people that turn to God is just not supported by scripture, in the entire book of Revelation we find only one occasion that this is so, and it is the result of the second woe.

God bless

[Daniel 11:36]

"Peter also speaks about the thief, the same symbol used by Matthew, Luke, Paul, and John which was originally given to us by Jesus in Matthew 24.

 

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the tribulation .... no others

"taken and left" is a reference to Israel

Two thirds will be taken and the balance will be left to enter the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals [Zechariah 13:8-9]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

l

Edited May 17, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[wingnut-]

12 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the tribulation .... no others

"taken and left" is a reference to Israel

Two thirds will be taken and the balance will be left to enter the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals [Zechariah 13:8-9]

 

 

Sorry, but all the evidence in scripture points to the contrary.

 

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

This prophecy has not been fulfilled, it is in regards to the end time.  What is spoken of in Matthew is a 50-50 split, one taken and one left.  This says 2/3 are cut off and die, 1/3 are brought through the fire.  I'm not the greatest at math, but that is clearly a different percentage.  So what does it mean to be cut off?  Take a look at some examples specifically about this in regards to Israel.

 

Genesis 17:14  And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

 

Leviticus 18:29  For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

 

These are just two of several hundred examples in the Old Testament.  But let's look at what the New Testament has to say about being cut off for clarification.

 

John 15  “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

Jesus is the vine, and we are the branches.  Anyone that is not His will be cut from the vine and thrown into the fire.  This is what it means to be "cut off".  In the passage from Zechariah, it is specified that the 2/3 are not only cut off, but they die, as in physically.  Only 1/3 of Jewish unbelievers will come to the Lord, these are known in scripture as the remnant.

 

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
Will never again depend on him who defeated them,
But will depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
To the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea,
A remnant of them will return;
The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord God of hosts
Will make a determined end
In the midst of all the land.

 

Notice in verse 20 that it says they have escaped?  This is the group protected in the wilderness in Revelation 12, the remnant that will return to the Lord.  The 2/3 do not return, they are cut off and die.

God bless