misogyny

[Spock]

50 minutes ago, OneLight said:

None of these posts says women cannot work in ministry.  Some say they cannot hold specific offices, but never a blanket statement like you claim.

You can't be serious One Light.  We had a whole thread about women pastors and many people, several women I may add, and even you, quoted that passage in Timothy and said, " there you go, women are not to teach men and not to have authority over men. "

 

 

[Wolf Bridges]

 

1 minute ago, Spock said:

You can't be serious One Light.  We had a whole thread about women pastors and many people, several women I may add, and even you, quoted that passage in Timothy and said, " there you go, women are not to teach men and not to have authority over men. "

 

 

The posted remarks OneLight quoted to Happiness shows his own opposition to women in leadership positions in the church. "Scripture shows us who can and cannot be leaders in the church.  " 

That's a blanket statement right there. 

[Spock]

41 minutes ago, Happinessity said:

That is correct. It is about misogyny. Which can be a factor in those strongly opposed to women being pastors. 

Any Prejudice against women is misogyny.  I will not stand by idly and watch women be treated like second class citizens. They are not!  Certainly not IN CHRIST! 

Ask the WW2 survivors how important women were to the war cause?  If they can run the factories and make airplanes and ships, they can also teach the word of God to me. I will listen to any Spirit filled woman any day of the week. 

Heck, why do you think God made woman anyhow?  Because he realized he made a mistake making man and He wanted to perfect his error.  Hehe

 

 

[Spock]

9 minutes ago, Davida said:

So standing against Apostle Paul's writing and calling him a misogynist?

Sigh!  Really, you want me to explain this to you again!  Sigh!

Is it possible Pauls letter to the Corinthians was just that?  A LETTER addressing a specific problem, to a specific church, to a specific culture, and to a specific point in time? 

Is it possible it was not meant for all times, all cultures, and all churches around the world? 

Is it possible????????????????

when I read the ENTIRE word of God, not just a letter, I see enough evidence to convince me we are all one in Christ and that I have no right to tell a woman to BURY HER GOD GIVEN TALENTS AND GIFTS!  Btw, That is called QUENCHING THE SPIRIT! 

Now I can't control what you believe, say, or do, but as for me and my household, I will walk side by side (not in front of a woman) holding her hand in a spirt of oneness in Christ encouraging her to BE ALL THAT GOD ALLOWS FOR HER TO BE! 

A drooling Spock

Edited May 15, 2017 by Spock

[Guest]

The passages indicating women shouldn't serve in leadership roles in church were only directed towards one certain audience. I believe it was Corinth and it doesn't apply to us today. 

[Spock]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

You realize your speaking against Apostle Paul?  I really doubt if this comes as a shock but these people just are following what the Bible says & believe that Paul was speaking with the authority given from God. Boring huh?  I know, I know.... it's much more incendiary narrative to pretend the other side  is based upon people's  personal hatred towards women & trying to belittle them & to "keep women down!"  , otherwise how to maintain the  outrage--  if the side that is not for  women as Pastors-  is simply others being obedient to scripture? 

Just curious, Did Paul speak against slavery? 

[wingnut-]

I thought I would chime in on this lively discussion with a few thoughts.  There are a few things that have been said in this thread that I felt necessary to comment on.  At some point it was said that none of the 12 disciples were women, and while that is certainly true according to scripture, scripture also indicates that the 12 disciples were not the only disciples.

 

John 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

 

The reason I find this relevant is multiple layered.  First, the very definition of disciple is all inclusive and not gender based.  Second, there is no reason to assume that none of these disciples are female, in fact, there are multiple examples of women followers throughout the gospels.  Third, many of them left and walked away.  Why?  Because they did not like what He said.  They were following Him until He said something that they did not like, and that has application in regards to how we today choose to reject what is written in scripture when we don't personally like it.  Whether we like it or not is irrelevant because truth is not up to us.

 

In regards to that, scripture has already been posted in which we are told that in Christ we are all one, and it specifies male and female.  In closing I would like to add one more passage from scripture that is also relevant.

 

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d]of His flesh and of His bones.

 

Now it is true that many men over the course of time have abused this concept, and in doing so are disregarding their instruction.  The real issue comes down to how each individual defines submission and love.  To me it is fairly simple, with love is respect, and that is incumbent on both genders to do their part.  In my own personal experience I know for certain that I was not the husband I should have been, and that ultimately I am as much to blame for the failure of my marriage as my ex-wife, perhaps even more.  I think anyone who has ever been in a relationship would have to admit that they are not blameless in disputes or quarrels that arise.

God bless

[wingnut-]

13 minutes ago, Davida said:

Making a misogyny accusation against those who are obeying what the Bible states in 1Tim 2:12-14 is just slander.  

 

Hey davida, just curious if you were responding to my post?

[Wolf Bridges]

1 hour ago, Davida said:

You realize your speaking against Apostle Paul?

Deflection? 

No, I'm not speaking against the Apostle Paul. The argument that sponsors what has been called gender bias in the name of God would be speaking against the Apostle Paul. 

Paul said,there is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

[Wolf Bridges]

21 minutes ago, Davida said:

Making a misogyny accusation against those who are obeying what the Bible states in 1Tim 2:12-14 is just slander.  

That charge results from lack of comprehension of exegesis. 

You realize you're arguing that you because you are a woman are unfit to teach the word of God? Because of your God appointed gender? One could say that if someone is arguing a woman is unfit to preach the word of God that she is unable to herald, proclaim, or preach the words of God. Being she's a woman. That would then make women unable to proselytize to sinners anywhere. 

 

Quote

 

kérussó: to be a herald, proclaim

Original Word: κηρύσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kérussó
Phonetic Spelling: (kay-roos'-so)
Short Definition: I proclaim, herald, preach
Definition: I proclaim, herald, preach.

 

 

Paul's letters were to the churches he founded. His instruction to the churches he founded. 
Whereas his statement that we are all one in Christ is Godly and of Christ. 

There is a difference. Paul founded churches that he managed through what are termed his pastoral letters. 

 

 

 

Does the Bible Really Forbid Women Preachers?

A Closer Look at 1 Corinthians 14:34,35 and 1 Timothy 2:11,12 

 

 

Quote

 

(excerpting)......The Greek of 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35 and Dr. Spiros Zodhiates

Years ago I picked up a copy of the Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible with notes by Dr. Spiros Zodhiates. Dr. Zodhiates is a native Greek and his work is very impressive. It was his notes which first introduced me to the possibility that perhaps many people have been misreading and misinterpreting 1 Corinthians 14:34,35. In his notes on this passage, he remarked:

 

Under no circumstances does the injunction of Paul in 1 Cor. 14:34 indicate that women should not utter a word at any time during the church service…Furthermore, the word gunaikes (1135 in v. 34) should not be translated “women” in its generic sense, but as “wives.” It is wives who should submit (hupotassomai, 5293) to their own husbands (andras, 435, v. 35). The whole argument is not the subjection of women to men in general, but of wives to their own husbands in the family unit as ordained by God.²

 

Reading this caused me to pause and think. I had not read this argument before. In checking the Greek terms mentioned by Dr. Zodhiates, I found that there was some validity to his points. Indeed, in Ephesians 5:22, where we find the admonition “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord,” the Greek words translated as “wives” and “husbands” are the same as the words normally translated as “women” and “husbands” in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35. So the question naturally follows as to why we have the same Greek word translated one way (“wives” in Ephesians 5:22), but translated a different way (generically “women”) in 1 Corinthians 14:34. This curious situation led me to look more deeply into the passages people use to prohibit women from preaching and teaching.

 

The Greek of 1 Timothy 2:11,12 and Dr. Zodhiates

After looking into the Greek of 1 Corinthians 14:34 and finding that it may have been mistranslated, I then decided to look into the Greek of 1 Timothy 2:11,12. Again, Dr. Zodhiates made this interesting point:

 

Observe 1 Tim. 2:11. It does not say women but a woman, and better still, a wife. The word in Greek is gune (1135), which indicates either a woman generically speaking or a wife, depending on the context. In this instance, since it stands in apposition to the word andros (the genitive singular of aner here meaning only “husband” and not “man” generically, 435), it must be translated as “a wife.” It is because of the mistranslations of these passages that the Christian world has had so much difficulty in understanding the proper position of a woman in the Christian Church…Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be “But I suffer not a woman to teach,” but “I suffer not a wife….”³