The Elect

[fixerupper]

On 7/27/2017 at 4:02 AM, n2thelight said:

The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world,being a Christian and being saved does not make one an elect.

Well I would disagree with that..

Elect, 

picked out, chosen

chosen by God,

to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians are called "chosen or elect" of Godthe Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivablechoice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

[OldCoot]

On 5/31/2017 at 3:44 PM, wingnut- said:

 

No, I see John saying that he is the friend of the Bridegroom.  The voice calling out in the wilderness, and the fulfillment of that prophecy.  That's why he says "this joy of mine is fulfilled."  Because the Messiah has arrived.  There is only one body, and John the Baptist is part of it.

The only separation with Jesus is those who believe, and those who do not.

God bless

JB was the last prophet of the OT era.  He, like Abraham, Isaiah, David, et al believed in the Messiah.  But JB was still OT.  Only after the resurrection do those that believe make up "body".  There is a definite delineation between OT saints and those that believe after the resurrection.  Likewise, it is not unrealistic to see there is a delineation between the body of believers as we know it now and those that come to faith during the great tribulation period that the church does not go thru.

JB was indeed considered righteous, but...

Luke 7:28 (NKJV) For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

Read that as JB is greater than Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, etc.  JB was considered the greatest prophet of all time by Yeshua, probably because JB was the one who actually got to reveal the Messiah to the world.  But JB was still an OT prophet.  Not a part of the body of believers that make up the church after the resurrection. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:15 AM, fixerupper said:

Well I would disagree with that..

Elect, 

picked out, chosen

chosen by God,

to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians are called "chosen or elect" of Godthe Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivablechoice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

I would agree with the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world.  It is a matter of time domain.  God can see the end from the beginning. He knew before the foundations of the world were laid  who would accept and reject Messiah.  He can call those that accept His foreknown elect. 

It all is a matter of which side of the time domain you are looking at things. 

I can't recall the author, but I read one time a description of this that seems apropos.  A man is standing in a hall and sees a door, that written above it says "whosoever will".  He enters the door and finds a banquet hall set up.  And on a table is a place setting for him.  He turns around and above the door he just entered, it says "Known from the foundation of the world".  

We live in a universe that is multidimensional several magnitudes above what we visibly experience.  According to the Jewish sages AND modern particle physics, 10 dimensions. There could in fact even be more than one dimension of time.  Yes, time is a dimension.  It can vary by mass, acceleration, and gravity.   We tend to pigeon hole God into our 4 dimensions we deal with instead of realizing that He is several dimensions more than even the 10 we know of.  

It is not too outlandish to even fathom that all we know of is actually a holographic simulation in a plasma universe which is in reality merely a thought in the mind of God.  I don't quite go that far, but I do know that we tend to limit in our thinking who God is.  Just a quick look at the reality of the Zero Point Energy of the universe can dramatize the magnitude of God.

 

[fixerupper]

13 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I would agree with the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world.  It is a matter of time domain.  God can see the end from the beginning. He knew before the foundations of the world were laid  who would accept and reject Messiah.  He can call those that accept His foreknown elect. 

It all is a matter of which side of the time domain you are looking at things. 

I can't recall the author, but I read one time a description of this that seems apropos.  A man is standing in a hall and sees a door, that written above it says "whosoever will".  He enters the door and finds a banquet hall set up.  And on a table is a place setting for him.  He turns around and above the door he just entered, it says "Known from the foundation of the world".  

We live in a universe that is multidimensional several magnitudes above what we visibly experience.  According to the Jewish sages AND modern particle physics, 10 dimensions. There could in fact even be more than one dimension of time.  Yes, time is a dimension.  It can vary by mass, acceleration, and gravity.   We tend to pigeon hole God into our 4 dimensions we deal with instead of realizing that He is several dimensions more than even the 10 we know of.  

It is not too outlandish to even fathom that all we know of is actually a holographic simulation in a plasma universe which is in reality merely a thought in the mind of God.  I don't quite go that far, but I do know that we tend to limit in our thinking who God is.  Just a quick look at the reality of the Zero Point Energy of the universe can dramatize the magnitude of God.

 

We are NOT talking about God's view of scripture, we are talking about the simple definition to a simple word....ELECT, which indicates CHRISTIANS!

[fixerupper]

On 7/27/2017 at 4:02 AM, n2thelight said:

The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world,being a Christian and being saved does not make one an elect.

And Christians should look 'just to see' if these verses jive!

1.  Being a Christian DOES make one 'elect' or CHOSEN.  That's the definition of the word 'EKLEKTOS'!

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2.  The word 'chosen' in Ephesians 1:4 isn't the word, "EKLEKTOS."  It's the word, "eklegomai," which means, "CHOICE MADE!"

Ephesians 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

So much for Christians having a good hermeneutic

[OldCoot]

20 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

We are NOT talking about God's view of scripture, we are talking about the simple definition to a simple word....ELECT, which indicates CHRISTIANS!

I wasn't talking about God's view of scripture either.  Simply about the concept of the elect.  Not quite sure how you deduced the idea that I was talking about scripture.   Try reading the post without interjecting your preconceptions into it.  But the definition is not quite that simple is where I went with it.

Edited August 1, 2017 by OldCoot

[fixerupper]

3 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I wasn't talking about God's view of scripture either.  Simply about the concept of the elect.  Not quite sure how you deduced the idea that I was talking about scripture.   Try reading the post without interjecting your preconceptions into it.  But the definition is not quite that simple is where I went with it.

Read your post Coot.  It's a gas!

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 Only after the resurrection do those that believe make up "body".  There is a definite delineation between OT saints and those that believe after the resurrection.

 

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

 

There is only one body, built on the foundation of the apostles and PROPHETS, with Jesus being the cornerstone.  This one passage from Ephesians refutes your entire argument.  We are joined together and built together, in ONE body, through ONE seed, and ONE Spirit.   People can either accept scripture for what it says, or choose to reject it.

God bless

[OldCoot]

Then how is it that the least person in the kingdom is greater than the greatest OT prophet?

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Then how is it that the least person in the kingdom is greater than the greatest OT prophet?

 

Jesus is speaking of Himself, that is how.  In the Old Testament prophesies was He not prophesied as the suffering servant?  Servant being the key term in this, and I think it should be fairly obvious that His entire ministry on this earth did nothing but display servitude, founded in humility.

 

Luke 22:24 A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. 25 And he said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves.27 For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

28 “You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

 

God bless