Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

I admit I was wrong. Looking deeper into samaritans, it shows they were miss placed children of Israel. They took a alternate path towards God away from their kinsman the ones that still followed the teachings of Moses. So they were viewed as less then the others, following their beliefs which were called Samaritan beliefs. I guess that speaks to what the woman at the well says about her ancestry, and the original source off the well. So yes you are 100% correct I am wrong 

It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, as long as we grow in Christ and knowledge, I have been wrong on many issues many times (More long ago of course, we learn over time) and God brings us unto truths. 

1 hour ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

Are you trying to say that the rapture and the second coming are one in the same? The rapture is the gathering of the saints, the second coming is when Jesus shows up with heavens armies, and saints to destroy the armies that gathered against him and Israel. Two separate events.

Exactly, the Rapture is the Church Age ending. Then Israel must face Jacobs Trouble, then after they atone, God protects them from being destroyed, BECAUSE....God promised Abraham he would always have a seed, and Israel will be the seat of Christ for 1000 years. TWO SEPARATE EVENTS is 100 percent correct. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

To summarize my OP.  The Timeline of Revelation. 

1. Chapters 14, 16 and 18 are the same event(s). Babylon Falls
2. Chapters 11, 12, 13, and 17 all have their origins in Chapter 6. In other words the Two witnesses, Israel Fleeing, the Beast Arising and the Harlot being destroyed and burned/killed all have their beginning(s) at the mid-way point of the 70th Week. 
3. Chapters 4, 5, 7, and 19 is the Church in Heaven along with the Heavenly beings. In Rev. 19 the Church returns with Christ.
4. Chapters 6, 8, 9, 15 and 16 are the 21 Judgments or Seals/Trumpets and Vials in Sequence. Rev. 14 has the 2nd Woe mentioned.
5. Chapters 1, 2 and 3 speak of the Seven Churches of Asia Minor. 
6. Chapter 20, 21 and 22 are Judgment and living with God forever. CHAPTER 10, is a Mystery to be honest. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

On 6/9/2017 at 11:51 AM, wingnut- said:

 

This passage speaks directly to His coming, linking the catching away with His coming as a singular event.  I'm not sure how people miss this.  

I don't think that was the intent of the Author.

³⁶ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The story of Lot is telling the same thing: those living in Sodom and Gomorrah had no idea that morning would be their last morning. They had no warning. Those lost in the flood - at least those that knew about Noah - had so much warning, they got careless because of their unbelief.

Notice that they were eating and drinking - in other words just living a very normal life, with NO IDEA that that morning when they got up, would be their last morning. They had NO IDEA rain would come, and the flood would come. They had never seen rain before. Notice also who was "taken away:" it was all those who did not believe Noah. It was all those who were just living their life to the fullest. So what was Jesus' point? It was the SUDDENNESS of their destruction: they had no idea the next day they would all be dead.

Remember the parable of the tares? It is going to happen again: people will be just living life as these before the flood, clueless that Jesus is about to come and when He does, everything will change. The wicked will be taken off this planet.

In Matthew 24, there is very little hint of TWO more comings. But we form doctrine for all scripture, not just a part. When Paul wrote of the Rapture coming, there too will be a SUDDENLY - an event with no warning: Suddenly those in their grave who died in Christ  - that is their bodies - will fly up out of their grave, and they who came down with Jesus will meet with their newly resurrected bodies and be complete again. It will happen suddenly. And it will cause a worldwide earthquake, like nothing seen before. That earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. Those left behind cannot escape - for the ONLY escape will be to get raptured.

According to Paul then, the rapture can come on ANY day - a day just like today.

if we put all the scriptures together about His coming to the battle of Armageddon, there will be DARKNESS around the planet for days, and then suddenly the darkness will be lit up as lightning lights up a dark sky. But this will not be lightning! It will be the Lord Jesus Christ, coming in splendor and power and brightness. And He will be coming  WITH the armies of heaven: not one army as in the angels, but more than one army as in the Saints AND the angels.

This is proven by Rev. 19. The saints are already in heaven at the marriage, before Christ descends with these armies. HOW did they get to heaven? Of course, by His second coming, when He will come FOR His saints.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

To summarize my OP.  The Timeline of Revelation. 

1. Chapters 14, 16 and 18 are the same event(s). Babylon Falls
2. Chapters 11, 12, 13, and 17 all have their origins in Chapter 6. In other words the Two witnesses, Israel Fleeing, the Beast Arising and the Harlot being destroyed and burned/killed all have their beginning(s) at the mid-way point of the 70th Week. 
3. Chapters 4, 5, 7, and 19 is the Church in Heaven along with the Heavenly beings. In Rev. 19 the Church returns with Christ.
4. Chapters 6, 8, 9, 15 and 16 are the 21 Judgments or Seals/Trumpets and Vials in Sequence. Rev. 14 has the 2nd Woe mentioned.
5. Chapters 1, 2 and 3 speak of the Seven Churches of Asia Minor. 
6. Chapter 20, 21 and 22 are Judgment and living with God forever. CHAPTER 10, is a Mystery to be honest. 

Well, I can agree on your point 5: the first chapters are about John and the churches.

I can also agree on your point 6.

Point 1: Chapter 14 is a part of the midpoint intermission, where God was showing John all the many events that will happen around the midpoint of the week. It is before the Beast and False prophet have begun to enforce their Mark, for it goes without saying, God will certainly warn people of the danger of accepting this mark BEFORE they have it ready and people begin accepting it.

Chapter 16 is about the vials that will come late in the last half of the week. Jesus will not be on earth during the vials. the 7th vial ends the 70th week, but Jesus will still be in heaven, for the start of  the marriage and supper. This is John's God given chronology.

Chapter 17 is John seeing behind the curtain, so to speak, as to How God will see the city of Jerusalem when the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the entire world from there, and how the beheadings will begin there where the Beast will reside. Jerusalem will be the headquarters for this terrible Beast that Daniel saw in Daniel 7, and John saw in Rev. 13. 

The events in chapter 18, the destruction of the city of Jerusalem, will begin earlier, when the great earthquake of the 7th vial hits. But it appears from John's narrative that the armies of the nations of the world may not get to Israel and/or to Jerusalem until after the 7th vial had ended the week. The siege of Jerusalem will be well under way and the city burning, when Jesus descends on the scene.

Point 2. Readers, make note: John has not yet even arrived at the start of the 70th week at the 6th seal. The 6th seal begins the prophesied event of the Day of the Lord, and the 7th seal is the official opening of the 70th week: the 30 minutes of silence before Judgment begins.  Chapter 11, 12, and 13 are MIDPOINT chapters. All the events given in these chapters (except for parentheses and prophecy) will take place very near the midpoint abomination event: the man of sin entering the temple and declaring he is god.  Chapter 17 is God showing how HE sees Jerusalem as the headquarters city of the kingdom of the beast, and then the kingdom itself.

Revelation is a narrative by John of the vision shown to John by God. It begins right at the time of John, and marches right straight through time to our far distant future. This is the way it was written. For those that find the need to rearrange, it will be up to them to offer PROOF that God did not give these events to John in the proper order. In other words, the 6th seal opening will be an event that will come over 7 years before the events of chapter 16. That is the way it was given to John and the way John gave it to us.

Seals 1 is the church taking the gospel to the world. The timing was around 32 AD. John GIVES US this timing in chapter 5. It is not a mystery. Seals 2, 3, and 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. so they are church age events. Seal 5 is for the church age martyrs. It too was opened around 32 AD. But we are waiting on seal 6, for it is future.

Therefore, to say that something in a later chapter happens during one of the seals is simply not understanding the way Revelation was written.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think that was the intent of the Author.

³⁶ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The story of Lot is telling the same thing: those living in Sodom and Gomorrah had no idea that morning would be their last morning. They had no warning. Those lost in the flood - at least those that knew about Noah - had so much warning, they got careless because of their unbelief.

Notice that they were eating and drinking - in other words just living a very normal life, with NO IDEA that that morning when they got up, would be their last morning. They had NO IDEA rain would come, and the flood would come. They had never seen rain before. Notice also who was "taken away:" it was all those who did not believe Noah. It was all those who were just living their life to the fullest. So what was Jesus' point? It was the SUDDENNESS of their destruction: they had no idea the next day they would all be dead.

Remember the parable of the tares? It is going to happen again: people will be just living life as these before the flood, clueless that Jesus is about to come and when He does, everything will change. The wicked will be taken off this planet.

In Matthew 24, there is very little hint of TWO more comings. But we form doctrine for all scripture, not just a part. When Paul wrote of the Rapture coming, there too will be a SUDDENLY - an event with no warning: Suddenly those in their grave who died in Christ  - that is their bodies - will fly up out of their grave, and they who came down with Jesus will meet with their newly resurrected bodies and be complete again. It will happen suddenly. And it will cause a worldwide earthquake, like nothing seen before. That earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. Those left behind cannot escape - for the ONLY escape will be to get raptured.

According to Paul then, the rapture can come on ANY day - a day just like today.

 

 

I'm afraid that in none of Paul's writings can you separate the gathering from His coming, because just like the passage from Matthew they are linked together as one event.  As always I am still waiting for any pre-tribber to produce scripture where the gathering is mentioned and His coming is not.  There is only a Second Coming, not a third or fourth or fifth.  There is no scripture to support this claim.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

This is proven by Rev. 19. The saints are already in heaven at the marriage, before Christ descends with these armies. HOW did they get to heaven?

 

They are in heaven because they have been killed, just like the scripture states.  There will be very few who are alive and remain, the majority will be deceased, the saints are overcome in the war according to scripture.

 

Revelation 13: 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I'm afraid that in none of Paul's writings can you separate the gathering from His coming, because just like the passage from Matthew they are linked together as one event.  As always I am still waiting for any pre-tribber to produce scripture where the gathering is mentioned and His coming is not.  There is only a Second Coming, not a third or fourth or fifth.  There is no scripture to support this claim.

They are in heaven because they have been killed, just like the scripture states.  There will be very few who are alive and remain, the majority will be deceased, the saints are overcome in the war according to scripture.

Revelation 13: 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

God bless

Good point. Of course, the rapture cannot be separated from His coming, for Paul wrote " we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" and "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him." Clearly He has to come to the air before the dead in Christ rise. Therefore I believe that when He comes FOR His saints, it will be His second coming, and when He comes WITH His saints, it will be his Third coming. I am not afraid to write "third" because I see two more comings in our future. 

I don't accept the gathering in Matthew as related to Paul's rapture, for I am convinced it is a different gathering. It will certainly be His coming as shown in Revelation 19. I don't think that is the same coming as shown in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians.

Don't wait any longer! You never will find any scripture about the rapture or gathering and no coming.

"There is only a Second Coming"  I agree, and that will be the coming FOR His saints, to take us back to heaven.  But there will also be a THIRD coming when He comes WITH His saints. You only need ONE VERSE to prove this: the church is ALREADY in heaven for the marriage, before Christ descends.  OF COURSE there is support. Millions of pretribbers have seen the support. The problem is, you see the same verses differently than pretrib does. We read 1 Thes. 4 & 5 and we see Paul giving us the timing as BEFORE the start of the Day of the Lord.  In 2 Thes 2, we see the word "apostasia" as not a falling away, but a departing of the church.

I thought we were talking about the rapture: the saints who are ALIVE at His coming. In your scenario, there is no way scripturally for them to get to the marriage. In pretrib, they arrive in heaven before the 70th week begins. Oh, that is also where Paul places the rapture. Those seen under the altar at seal 5 have been martyred. I will agree the have been killed. Those seen arriving in heaven in chapter 15 have been murdered by the Beast, and I agree that they have been killed.

There is no one tiny hint that any of the large group, too large to number, in Rev. 7 are martyrs. I am convinced God can certainly number the martyrs. They will make up only a small percentage of the church as a whole.

Yes, I will agree: if you by mistake imagine the bride of Christ on earth during Satan's wrath AND God's wrath (i.e. the last half of the week) OF COURSE the saints will be killed! But the truth is, God has set NO APPOINTMENTS with His wrath. The truth is, the Bride if Christ is out of here before Wrath begins. (See the 6th seal for when His wrath begins.) (But you are right, for all those left behind at the pretrib rapture, and turn to God (think NEW saints) i.e. that "remnant" of Rev. 12, most if not all of them will be killed, and will be that group John saw beginning to show up in heaven in Rev. 15.

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Good point. Of course, the rapture cannot be separated from His coming, for Paul wrote " we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" and "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him." Clearly He has to come to the air before the dead in Christ rise. Therefore I believe that when He comes FOR His saints, it will be His second coming, and when He comes WITH His saints, it will be his Third coming. I am not afraid to write "third" because I see two more comings in our future. 

 

And yet Jesus only spoke of His coming, not repeated comings and goings.  This is precisely where the problem is with pre-trib theology, it must insert invisible events into scripture to be true.  I will stick with what scripture states and base my beliefs on that, not try and fit scripture around a theory.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You only need ONE VERSE to prove this: the church is ALREADY in heaven for the marriage, before Christ descends.

 

I strongly disagree, scripture always supports itself.  It is inherently dangerous to build a doctrine around a single verse.  Also, you are reading something into scripture that is not there in this regards as well.  Scripture tells us that the time has come for the marriage, and the bride has made herself ready.  The bride makes herself ready prior to the wedding, unless I am missing something at every wedding I have ever attended.  Perhaps this passage offers clarity.

 

Revelation 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

I find it baffling that anyone would suggest Israel is not part of the marriage, even when repeatedly confronted with Hosea's prophecy stating otherwise.

 

Hosea 2:16 “And it shall be, in that day,”
Says the Lord,
“That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’
And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I thought we were talking about the rapture: the saints who are ALIVE at His coming. In your scenario, there is no way scripturally for them to get to the marriage.

 

Because you want to put the cart before the horse and not heed Hosea's prophecy.  What you are not grasping is that there will be very few who are alive at His coming, the majority are dead.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

There is no one tiny hint that any of the large group, too large to number, in Rev. 7 are martyrs. I am convinced God can certainly number the martyrs. They will make up only a small percentage of the church as a whole.

 

That is because you are disregarding what is said in Revelation 6 to the souls under the altar, their brethren must be killed as they were.  Killed as in dead.  You are also not taking into account how this is accomplished by the enemy.  He can bring down fire from heaven to kill anyone who refuses to worship him, exactly how long does that take and how far does that arm reach?  Think about it.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

mistake imagine the bride of Christ on earth during Satan's wrath AND God's wrath

 

If you fail to recognize that Jesus is not a polygamist and think there are two brides and two bodies despite what scripture says, then it is easy to be confused.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

God has set NO APPOINTMENTS with His wrath

 

Agreed, the wrath the saints face will be that of the enemy, not God, again explained in scripture.

 

Revelation 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

Clarification of how believers are not harmed by God's wrath is found here.

 

Exodus 12:12 ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. 13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

 

This is why the remnant of Israel has to be sealed prior to God's judgement, because they require the seal for protection until they come to belief in Jesus.  Believers already have the seal of the Holy Spirit, which is why you don't see anyone other than Israel being sealed.

God bless

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Good point. Of course, the rapture cannot be separated from His coming, for Paul wrote " we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" and "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him." Clearly He has to come to the air before the dead in Christ rise. Therefore I believe that when He comes FOR His saints, it will be His second coming, and when He comes WITH His saints, it will be his Third coming. I am not afraid to write "third" because I see two more comings in our future. 

And yet Jesus only spoke of His coming, not repeated comings and goings.  This is precisely where the problem is with pre-trib theology, it must insert invisible events into scripture to be true.  I will stick with what scripture states and base my beliefs on that, not try and fit scripture around a theory.

 

 

While Jesus was alive, he was speaking to Jews about them. He spoke very little about a future Gentile church. In case you missed it, the Jewish church died out. Therefore the coming He spoke of would be the coming at the end of their age - the coming we see in Rev. 19.

Paul was the only person to receive a revelation of the rapture of the church - where live people would be changed and caught up. It was a mystery then. So many disbelieve it - it seems a mystery still! For those that imagine they find Paul's rapture in the gospels, they are simply mistaken.

The fact is, there are scriptures that speak of His coming, but to attempt to fit them all into ONE coming is very difficult and at the same time keep all scripture in context. When one sees TWO comings, every verse fits perfectly within the context.

[wingnut-]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

While Jesus was alive, he was speaking to Jews about them. He spoke very little about a future Gentile church. In case you missed it, the Jewish church died out. Therefore the coming He spoke of would be the coming at the end of their age - the coming we see in Rev. 19.

 

Jesus was speaking to His disciples that would start His church.  The future of the Gentiles pre-dates Jesus' birth and can be found in OT prophecies, in case you missed that.  He is only coming once, scripture supports nothing other than that.

 

6 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Paul was the only person to receive a revelation of the rapture of the church

 

And here all this time I thought John wrote Revelation.  

 

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The fact is, there are scriptures that speak of His coming, but to attempt to fit them all into ONE coming is very difficult and at the same time keep all scripture in context.

 

It's the only way for it to all fit together, which is why the pre-trib theory has to twist scripture into a pretzel to reach their desired conclusion.  All I have to do is read it as it is written.

God bless

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Jesus was speaking to His disciples that would start His church.  The future of the Gentiles pre-dates Jesus' birth and can be found in OT prophecies, in case you missed that.  He is only coming once, scripture supports nothing other than that.

And here all this time I thought John wrote Revelation.  

It's the only way for it to all fit together, which is why the pre-trib theory has to twist scripture into a pretzel to reach their desired conclusion.  All I have to do is read it as it is written.

God bless

The important words are, "that WOULD" start His church. There are things we don't know, because we are not God. WHAT IF, for example, Israel would have accepted the Messiah? Would God have then not raised up Saul to go after the gentiles? You see, things could have taken a very different path. OF COURSE God knows the future, but it seems He still waits to see how men react.  Keep in mind, Jesus only said what the Holy Spirit conveyed to Him that God the FAther said. Jesus, while He was a man, had laid aside His being all knowing. He as a man did not know the future any more than you or I can know the future. What He knew of the future was only what the Holy Spirit conveyed to Him.

Remember the woman with the issue of blood? He did not know who touched Him. It is my belief that God caused Jesus to speak only what would fit with either scenario: a nation of Israel that WOULD accept Him as their Messiah, or a nation that would not.  As I read the Olivet Discourse, I don't see Jesus speaking to the church. It seems everything He said was pointed right at the Jews. For example, we as church members do NOT attend Synagogues as a general rule.

Now, if you see something there you think is church related, please show us.

What you should have said, is that you cannot find any scriptures that support two more comings. Millions of believers CAN find such scriptures. That in itself should cause you to rethink this whole end time scenario. Buy the way, you still have not shown us all HOW the church will make it to heaven for the marriage and supper. Since (according to you) posttrib is truth, this should be no problem at all. (Amazing though, so far no posttriber has ever been able to do this, to my knowledge.)

John DID right Revelation, directed by the Holy Spirit. But you cannot find the rapture in Revelation. God chose not to show John the catching up of the believers. The ONLY catching up John saw and wrote of was the two witnesses.

Pretrib twist? Then please explain how YOU plan on getting to the marriage and supper. And while you solve that problem, please show us HOW there will be believers left in their natural bodies to have children during the Millennial reign.

Now lets see who really twists scripture.

Maybe your eyesight is better than mine. I cannot find a gathering ANYWHERE in Revelation 19 as Jesus descends to the battle of Armageddon, other than the birds that will eat flesh.

Neither can I see Jesus coming in splendor and power with the armies of heaven, in 1 Thes 4 & 5.  Somehow, amazingly, you seem to be able to.