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Posted

ERRORS OF THE POST TRIB. VIEW.

The main reason, I believe that people think that the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, is because they confuse God`s purposes for – the Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations.

When we read a newspaper or magazine, etc we know that when someone is speaking to a person or a group, then it is not us they are talking to. This also applies to reading God`s word. We can read of God talking through the prophets to specific people or Israel or the nations, and know that He is talking to them. Also when Jesus was manifest on earth and was talking to specific people or Israel, then we know that He is specifically talking to them.

Christ is the centre of God`s word, His character and His purposes, and it only brings confusion and error to place ourselves as the centre.  

The following scriptures are the most generally used to support the post-trib. view, however I believe they concern Israel & the nations and NOT the Body of Christ.

1.Matthew 24. This gives a detailed account of what will happen to Israel & the nations. The revelation of the Body of Christ is not given till many years later when Jesus, the Head of the body reveals His purpose for them and their end-time details through the Apostle Paul.

 

ERROR. Believing that Jesus is telling of the Body of Christ`s future in the end-times.

 

2.Matthew 24: 31. `And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.`

The `elect` is Israel. `For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Is. 45: 4)

 

ERROR. Believing that the elect in that scripture, is the Body of Christ.

 

You may like to comment upon my thoughts.


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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

1.Matthew 24. This gives a detailed account of what will happen to Israel & the nations. The revelation of the Body of Christ is not given till many years later when Jesus, the Head of the body reveals His purpose for them and their end-time details through the Apostle Paul.

 

It is about Israel only, of course, but it is about the Church also in that Jesus told the plight of the Jewish Nation as a whole, by telling of them going through the Tribulation (Matt. 24:14-27) and about the few Messianic Jews who will be Raptured (Matt. 24:34-42).  I make this argument that Jesus when asked, told about both Messianic and non Messianic Jews,  all the way to the End Times, which is what he was asked about.  If Jesus is going to answer the question, in truth, he has to speak about both end time events that Jews will be a part of.

 

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

2.Matthew 24: 31. `And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.`

The `elect` is Israel. `For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Is. 45: 4)

 

ERROR. Believing that the elect in that scripture, is the Body of Christ.

This could go a few ways....The Elect could be the Jewish Elect IN HEAVEN since the Scriptures say they are gathered from the four corners of HEAVEN or one end of Heaven unto the other....It could be he is Gathering Israel upon his return as the WHEAT.....Or it could be all of those in Heaven that return with Jesus, his Saints so to speak. 

Something I am now working on, that kinda fits here with THE ELECT.............The 144,000 are Sealed, they FOLLOW Jesus everywhere, and they are Virgins. They are Mentioned in chapter 7 first, where the Church is also seen in Heaven. They are Sealed, they are Virgins !!! Are they 144,000 or are they 12 (FULLNESS) X 12 (FULLNESS), or are they actually, GET THIS MAYBE I am looking at, actually innocent Children, Jewish Kids slaughtered by wicked men like Hitler, who are truly virgins in Heaven? 

Just something I am looking at, these things I usually study 5 or 6 months unless the Holy Spirit just gives it to me. Is it just the 144,000 that show up with Christ? 

Rev. 14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev. 14 is of course the Harvest = Second Coming. 

Like to hear your feed back, I don't just jump to conclusions, but when studying Rev. 14 these things hit me. God Bless. 

Edited by Revelation Man

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Posted
11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

ERRORS OF THE POST TRIB. VIEW.

The main reason, I believe that people think that the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, is because they confuse God`s purposes for – the Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations.

When we read a newspaper or magazine, etc we know that when someone is speaking to a person or a group, then it is not us they are talking to. This also applies to reading God`s word. We can read of God talking through the prophets to specific people or Israel or the nations, and know that He is talking to them. Also when Jesus was manifest on earth and was talking to specific people or Israel, then we know that He is specifically talking to them.

Christ is the centre of God`s word, His character and His purposes, and it only brings confusion and error to place ourselves as the centre.  

 

Well, where to begin.  Let's start with the thought regarding people putting themselves at the center.  Wouldn't that be those who are expecting special treatment?  Scripture is crystal clear about facing troubles and persecution, so to me it is the group who wishes to believe in elevating their own selves to a special distinction that not even the apostles received that are making themselves the center.

 

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The following scriptures are the most generally used to support the post-trib. view, however I believe they concern Israel & the nations and NOT the Body of Christ.

1.Matthew 24. This gives a detailed account of what will happen to Israel & the nations. The revelation of the Body of Christ is not given till many years later when Jesus, the Head of the body reveals His purpose for them and their end-time details through the Apostle Paul.

 

ERROR. Believing that Jesus is telling of the Body of Christ`s future in the end-times.

 

The error as I see it, would be anyone picking and choosing what is or is not applicable for themselves from God's Word.  You indicate above, Israel and the nations, what nations would those be exactly?  In scripture we see two groups, Jews and Gentiles.  I would also like to point out, the details of the end times were delivered by John, not Paul.

 

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

2.Matthew 24: 31. `And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.`

The `elect` is Israel. `For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Is. 45: 4)

 

ERROR. Believing that the elect in that scripture, is the Body of Christ.

 

Well, we agree that the issue revolves around the identity of the elect, but why it is an issue is beyond me.

 

I Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

 

I Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

 

Elect by foreknowledge, as in chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

I Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

 

I Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

Chosen and elect are the same thing, interchangeable words.

 

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

 

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

And in regards to being grafted in.

 

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

The only separation that exists with God is belief, and unbelief.  There is only one way to heaven, Jesus Christ.  Those who do not believe in Jesus must accept Him to be grafted back in, scripture is not vague on the matter.

God bless


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Posted
11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Elect could be the Jewish Elect IN HEAVEN

 

Revelation 7  After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

 

They are on earth or they would not require a seal.

God bless


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Posted
15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Like to hear your feed back, I don't just jump to conclusions, but when studying Rev. 14 these things hit me. God Bless. 

Hi Revelation Man,

Thank you for your interest and desire to hear my feedback.

Now concerning Matt. 24: 34 – 42  those that are taken, are taken in judgment, as in the flood.

And as to the `elect` being the Jewish elect in heaven, remember they are in the general assembly awaiting their reward. (Heb. 12: 22 & 23 - the just/righteous men (& women) of the OT)

It has to make sense to the readers, ie talking of Israel. When we look at Isaiah 66 we see that the Lord gathers His people Israel from all corners of the earth where they will be scattered, being persecuted by the anti-Christ.

`Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering out of all the nations,….`(Isa. 66: 20)

Now the 144,000. They are described in Rev. 7 & 14. They are men who are pure, without guile or defiled. They are the first-fruits to God and the Lamb. They are on Mount Zion in heaven awaiting their reward.

I like your 12 x 12 fullness explanation. When I read scripture I always place what I am reading in the greater context of God`s plans. God the Father desires that His Son be the supreme ruler visible, over all. So from the third heaven, and then the universal heavens and on the earth there will be rulership all under Christ.

Each realm has different groups prepared by God to rule there. These 144,000 pure ones, I believe are the priests who will rule with the 12 apostles in the New Jerusalem. Each realm has king and priests. That is God`s government. So in the New Jerusalem we read symbolically of these 144,000 priests.

`Now the wall of the city had 12 foundations, & on them were the 12 apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed, to measure the city, its gates & its wall....And he measured its wall: 144 cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. And the construction of its wall was of jasper;......` (Rev. 21: 14 & 15,  17 & 18)

 

144 cubits – 144,000 bonded priests of God.    (Ex. 19: 6     Rev. 14: 1 – 5)

 

  cubit - Heb. `ammah,` a bond & `emah,` a multiple of 10,  eg 1,000

 

The walls of a city give it protection & security. In the New Jerusalem this represents the government of the Lord, the Kings & Priests.

 


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Posted
6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Well, where to begin.  Let's start with the thought regarding people putting themselves at the center.  Wouldn't that be those who are expecting special treatment?  

The error as I see it, would be anyone picking and choosing what is or is not applicable for themselves from God's Word.  You indicate above, Israel and the nations, what nations would those be exactly?  In scripture we see two groups, Jews and Gentiles.

The only separation that exists with God is belief, and unbelief.  There is only one way to heaven, Jesus Christ.  Those who do not believe in Jesus must accept Him to be grafted back in, scripture is not vague on the matter.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

I agree that people should not elevate themselves. We remember the 2 disciples that wanted to sit either side of the Lord when He became king over Israel. However when God says that Israel will rule the nations, then that is God giving rulership to them. And when God tells the Body of Christ what they will be doing then it is a serving role, not people trying to elevate themselves.

Now as to the groups in scripture, God says there are three.

`Give no offence, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God.`(1 Cor. 10: 32)

Yes we know that scripture says the Body of Christ is called the `elect` and also Israel is called the `elect.` This is because God has particular purposes for each. Note also that not everyone will go to heaven, but will have eternal life. See Revelation 21: 24.

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour into it.`

There will be a new heavens and a new earth and God has different groups to go into each for serving under Christ. All have eternal life, and all are blessed to be in a part of God`s great kingdom.

Regards, Marilyn.


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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Revelation Man,

Thank you for your interest and desire to hear my feedback.

Now concerning Matt. 24: 34 – 42  those that are taken, are taken in judgment, as in the flood.

And as to the `elect` being the Jewish elect in heaven, remember they are in the general assembly awaiting their reward. (Heb. 12: 22 & 23 - the just/righteous men (& women) of the OT)

It has to make sense to the readers, ie talking of Israel. When we look at Isaiah 66 we see that the Lord gathers His people Israel from all corners of the earth where they will be scattered, being persecuted by the anti-Christ.

`Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering out of all the nations,….`(Isa. 66: 20)

Now the 144,000. They are described in Rev. 7 & 14. They are men who are pure, without guile or defiled. They are the first-fruits to God and the Lamb. They are on Mount Zion in heaven awaiting their reward.

I like your 12 x 12 fullness explanation. When I read scripture I always place what I am reading in the greater context of God`s plans. God the Father desires that His Son be the supreme ruler visible, over all. So from the third heaven, and then the universal heavens and on the earth there will be rulership all under Christ.

Each realm has different groups prepared by God to rule there. These 144,000 pure ones, I believe are the priests who will rule with the 12 apostles in the New Jerusalem. Each realm has king and priests. That is God`s government. So in the New Jerusalem we read symbolically of these 144,000 priests.

`Now the wall of the city had 12 foundations, & on them were the 12 apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed, to measure the city, its gates & its wall....And he measured its wall: 144 cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. And the construction of its wall was of jasper;......` (Rev. 21: 14 & 15,  17 & 18)

 

144 cubits – 144,000 bonded priests of God.    (Ex. 19: 6     Rev. 14: 1 – 5)

 

  cubit - Heb. `ammah,` a bond & `emah,` a multiple of 10,  eg 1,000

 

The walls of a city give it protection & security. In the New Jerusalem this represents the government of the Lord, the Kings & Priests.

 

Like I stated, I haven't even started studying this in depth yet, the Holy Spirit just hit me with a bolt, the 144,000 follow Jesus wherever he goes.....Men can't do that, then they are mentioned as "First-fruits" and Jesus was mentioned as the very first first-fruits because he was raised from the dead. They are called first fruits. 

As per the Matthew 24:36-42 I did a full exegesis of this and I have to stick with this is the Rapture. For a few reasons. Though I understand why some people see it as the Second Coming and punishment as you do. The Lord gave me all of Matthew 24 at one setting. I can't doubt this information.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

{{  Marylin, I will point out my reasoning, as a gentleman if we disagree we can do it cordially. No man KNOWS the Day nor Hour. We will know when Jesus is going to come back for the Second Coming. It will be 1260 Days after the Beast conquers Jerusalem, because he only has 42 Months to rule. They will see the Seven Vials coming to pass. The Sixth Vial gathers all the nations at Armageddon. Its not going to be a surprise. But the Rapture will be a surprise. Just as Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2 and in 1 Corinthians 15. Its the same when the Jewish Bridegroom is sent by his father to get the bride at the "fathers timing" in the middle of the night, the bride is expectant but surprised. Then they go to the Marriage Chambers for 7 Days (7 Years). As the days of Noah they were eating and drinking and acting as if everything was normal. They laughed at Noah. When we tell them Jesus is coming soon what do they do Marylin? They mock, the say where is the promise of his coming, they scoff. etc., that's exactly what they were doing in Noah's time, where is THE RAIN Noah? Then when the rain came, it took a while, but the Floods came. Likewise when the Rapture comes, every person that is LEFT will go through absolute hell, except for the Israelis who flee to the Wilderness. Their fate will be decided that very day. The Rapture seals the fate of everyone left at that very moment. But the rain didn't cause the flood right away, it took awhile. The Rapture brings forth the Judgments.  }}

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

{{ This is Jesus telling the Disciples that when the Rapture comes they need to be ready, the 5 Virgins were locked out because they weren't ready. We always need to be ready, to keep ourselves unto the Lord. In verses 29-31 is the Second Coming. Jesus isn't repeating it again. }}

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

{{ Again, this is about a Surprise coming, not a coming of Jesus as a Conqueror. All the Jewish people on that day (SECOND COMING) will either be in the Wilderness or murdered. Also the evil men will not be eating and drinking during the Seven Vials, they will be hiding from Gods Wrath. They will be eating/drinking or Acting Normal, just before the Rapture, not just before the Second Coming, when the Seven Vials are poured out. }}

Those are my reasons why I think the Holy Spirit has shown me that this is the Rapture. God Bless. 

 

Edited by Revelation Man

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Posted
2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I agree that people should not elevate themselves. We remember the 2 disciples that wanted to sit either side of the Lord when He became king over Israel. However when God says that Israel will rule the nations, then that is God giving rulership to them. And when God tells the Body of Christ what they will be doing then it is a serving role, not people trying to elevate themselves.

 

I agree as well, I would hope that any Christian would understand that their purpose is to do His will.  In regards to Israel ruling the nations, I think you are still looking at that as ethnically based, and that does not align with scripture.

 

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

 

The meaning is found in the name itself, and believers are told they will be kings and priests numerous times.  Kings rule nations, it is believers who will rule the nations, serving under the King of Kings.  This is why Jesus is called King of Kings.

 

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now as to the groups in scripture, God says there are three.

`Give no offence, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God.`(1 Cor. 10: 32)

 

On this I disagree completely.  This passage from I Corinthians 10 is in reference to eating with non-believers, and you are taking it out of context.

 

I Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.

25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”

27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.”29 “Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? 30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?

31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

 

Paul is talking about eating food offered to idols, and what he is saying is that it is ok to do so with a clean conscience, as long as you are giving thanks to the Lord.  He is telling believers it is ok to do so and not to cause offense to the non-believer because whatever the food or drink, it comes from the Lord and His creation.  Paul breaks it down into three groups because of this reason and saying if they are eating with a Jew abiding in the dietary laws of the OT it is ok to eat, or with a non-believing Greek who serves food offered to idols it is ok to eat, and with fellow believers it is ok to eat.

It should be fairly simple to understand considering 2000 years later people are still arguing about what people are free to eat.  There are not three groups of people as you are attempting to divide from this passage, this has absolutely no bearing on the coming kingdom.  This is a misapplication of what this passage is saying.

 

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes we know that scripture says the Body of Christ is called the `elect` and also Israel is called the `elect.` This is because God has particular purposes for each.

 

I agree, God has purposes for each.  During the great tribulation Israel is told to flee to the wilderness, so that God can tenderly speak to them and bring them into the fold, that is their purpose at this time, to be brought to salvation.  They are safely tucked away out of the reach of the enemy for 3 1/2 years.

The saints have a purpose during this time as well, they are told to stand.  We are to face persecution and persevere for His name's sake, a powerful witness to an unbelieving world.  We have seen this throughout the church age, in regards to the apostles themselves and their persecution and deaths.  It was this way at the beginning of the church, and it will be so at the end of the church as well.  This is the church's purpose in the end times.  This is what we are told to be prepared for, and this is why we are told to put on the full armor of God, because we will need it to overcome.

 

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Note also that not everyone will go to heaven, but will have eternal life. See Revelation 21: 24.

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour into it.`

There will be a new heavens and a new earth and God has different groups to go into each for serving under Christ. All have eternal life, and all are blessed to be in a part of God`s great kingdom.

 

No one is going to heaven, God is coming down to dwell with us on the new earth, as is stated in Revelation 21.

 

Revelation 21   Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

 

And for clarification...

 

Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

 

God the Father and God the Son are both in the New Jerusalem.  We are all together in the same place, this is the very purpose of the new heaven and new earth, undefiled.  I love ya sister Marilyn, but your entire line of thought on this is simply way off base.

God bless


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Posted
1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

 I love ya sister Marilyn, but your entire line of thought on this is simply way off base.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

And bless you too dear bro. We do not see things the same in this area, but we know in whom we have believed, and have committed unto Him against that day.

regards, Marilyn.


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Posted
3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Hi Revelation Man,

Thank you for your thoughts. Perhaps we can look at this point you brought up.

 `But of that day and hour no one knows…` (Matt. 24: 36)

Jesus said that to Israel when He was on earth. However, as we know, Jesus is now at the right hand of the Father, and by His Holy Spirit He reveals this to the Apostle Paul –

``But you brethren are not in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief.`(1 Thess. 5: 4)

The Body of Christ is connected to the Head and we shall know as the day draws near.

Regards, Marilyn.

I will write more later.

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