Paradigm shift in Christian thinking over 2000 years

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 12/24/2021 at 8:29 AM, Justin Adams said:

New ideas that were often a part of their 'bibles'. Like the Scofield bible that most assumed was true in every way.

Yeah, Scofield did have a large impact, a whole generation of future pastors cut their teeth on the Bible in seminary. I like study Bibles, I think what Scofield tried was admirable, but he should not have imported Darbyism to it, and instead, stuck to notes about the text, not new doctrines.
Unfortunately, young skulls full of mush, were unable to make the distinction between the authority of scripture, and the thinking of one modern man. I might be mistaken, but I think that the Scofield Bible may have been the first "study Bible" since the Geneva Bible.

[Alive]

1 minute ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yeah, Scofield did have a large impact, a whole generation of future pastors cut there teeth on the Bible in seminary. I like study Bible, I think what Scofield tried was admirable, but he should not have imported Darbyism to it, and instead, stuck to notes about the text, not new doctrines.
Unfortunately, young skulls full of mush, were unable to make the distinction between the authority of scripture, and the thinking of one modern man. I might be mistaken, but I think that the Scofield Bible may have been the first "study Bible" since the Geneva Bible.

Yup--the closest may have been the Thompson's Chain Reference Bible, which was mine for many years.

[Alive]

Ha! I looked it up. Thompson's first published in 1908 and Schofield a year later.

:-)

[Omegaman 3.0]

9 minutes ago, Alive said:

Yup--the closest may have been the Thompson's Chain Reference Bible, which was mine for many years.

Yeah, but the Thompson's was much more balanced and a huge improvement - I think I have one or two of them around here somewhere, in different version. The various helps are interesting, but the chain system is pretty cool. I have the notes from it, on the computer.
I knew the Thompson was 1908, I did not realize that Scofield was later!

I am afraid I have probably led the topic away from the OP to a degree, sorry all!

 

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Yeah, but the Thompson's was much more balanced and a huge improvement - I think I have one or two of them around here somewhere, in different version. The various helps are interesting, but the chain system is pretty cool. I have the notes from it, on the computer.
I knew the Thompson was 1908, I did not realize that Scofield was later!

Yup--I agree. I liked it alot. When I switched to NAS, I found athe New Inductive Study Bible by Harvest House and what I currently use--hugely marked up. I like it because of the paragraph form, single column, font and margins. There are some nice charts and maps and such that have been helpful.

[wingnut-]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

To this, I'm afraid that I'm not able to convey enough evidence in this forum to substantiate what I believe ... yet, at least not to the affect of convincing a person of this approach.

 

Ok, so here is the issue that I have with this.  The title of the thread is about a paradigm shift in Christianity over the course of 2000 years.  If you don't have enough evidence to substantiate your claim over the course of 2000 years that is a clear indicator that the premise is faulty.

I'm not ignoring your comments regarding heaven, I disagree with the broad brush you are using, but for simplification purposes we won't get anywhere if we jump all over the place.  For now it is best to stick with the word angel and see if we can't come to some sort of agreement on that example.

 

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, this may have been a bad example for the word "Christ." There are such Christians, but truthfully, most are "newbies" to the faith and just haven't been taught, yet.

However, let's be honest: There is a SIGNIFICANT number of Christians who don't know what "Christ" means. They do not know that "Christ" is merely the Greek equivalent (Christos) to the Hebrew word "Mashiyach" usually Anglicized to "Messiah." And, quite frankly, even if they do, they do not know all the nuances of the word "Messiah," particularly as the word is understood in the Hebrew Scriptures or by the People of the Book!

 

Ok, so the examples you are referring to regarding this issue are new believers and haven't had enough solid teaching yet.  When I was a child and first learned about Jesus I didn't have any idea what Christ meant either, but none of this is evidence of a paradigm shift covering a period of 2000 years, it is simply a matter of growth in the faith.

 

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Really? What is the first thing one thinks about when another says the word "angel?"

 

Messenger, or in my experience people often will say a messenger from God or of God.   Now as I stated in the previous post, of all the words you mentioned in the OP this one in particular I have heard misused more than any of the others.  However, the misuse I continually come across is very specific in that it is always related to a recent loss of a loved one.

Specific examples would be people commenting that their dearly departed is now their "guardian angel" or something along those lines, or the other common misuse is in regards to their dearly departed looking down on them from heaven.  All such references fly in the face of scripture, but because of the circumstances often go unchallenged because people are not receptive to correction when it comes to grief.

All of that becomes irrelevant though because none of this is new, and none of it is related to a paradigm shift going back 2000 years, and this is a fact based on history and scripture itself.

The true origins of the misuse of the word angel dates back to Judaism (see the irony?).  Angel worship was a historical problem in relation the the Jews and that issue was a continuing problem in the early days of Christianity and is addressed in Hebrews chapter 1.  This of course is one of many errors related to Judaism, and another shining example of why Christians should not be looking to those in error for the truth.

Does scripture not pose the question, why should the living consult the dead?

I'll address the rest of your response in a separate post for the sake of length.

[wingnut-]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Let's take the example that Yeshua` (Jesus) used early in the history of His offer of the Kingdom to Israel:

Luke 4:16-21 (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias [Isaiah]. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them,

"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

 

Yes, this is a perfect example of what I stated in the previous post, dissecting a prophecy and attempting to render what follows as irrelevant regarding time sensitivity.

 

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

 

Jesus stopped reading at the point you ended the bold letters, but that does not negate the rest of the prophecy.  And is an inclusive word, it would be like me offering you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that you accept, only to find peanut butter between the bread slices.  He specifically said on "this day is this scripture fulfilled", meaning that exactly what He said was fulfilled on that specific day, it doesn't stop the unfolding of the entirety of the prophecy.  How many days are there in the Jewish calendar for a year?  I would suggest you consider that within the year of the Lord one should expect a day of vengeance to occur, because that is exactly what the prophecy states.  God didn't leave out the jelly, rest assured.

 

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Okay, let's look at Joel 2 and 3

 

Unless you've changed your position on this I believe we have common ground in agreeing that the beginning of chapter 2 is a historical event that was literally a pestilence event.  While you and I agree on that, we also both know that many futurists want to transfer all of this as still to come.  Problem being, Peter quotes starting from verse 28.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joel prophesies that afterward the events that Peter declares fulfilled at Pentecost would take place, and that afterward references the first 27 verses of the chapter.  So all that preceded it had already taken place by Pentecost.  That includes verse 11.

 

11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

 

It also includes these verses which immediately precede it and most futurists claim to refer to the millennium

 

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

 

In regards to chapter 3, it is clearly stated in the first verse that it is referencing the same time frame as chapter 2, not thousands of years into the future.  So as I stated originally, the issues come from people attempting to dissect a prophecy and separate parts into completely different periods of time.

One glaring contradiction that is overlooked, is that most futurists, particularly pre-tribbers, cling to the expectation that these armies are going to come and surround Jerusalem and God is going to miraculously deliver them.  HUGE problem in regards to Joel's prophecy.

 

Joel 3, verse 1.   1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

 

Time sensitivity, prophesies contain markers regarding the timing on things, not difficult to see when you examine history.  First question one must ask themselves, when did Joel receive this prophecy?

Second question one should ask themselves, Joel says shall bring captivity again, meaning it had already happened once, when was that?

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

After about 1400 and the so-called Reformation, ideas and long held doctrines began to be 'modified' by the 'intelligentsia' that had bibles. Since few are aware of this and the historical changes, they are easy prey for the 'new ideas'... 

New ideas that were often a part of their 'bibles'. Like the Scofield bible that most assumed was true in every way.

Shalom, Justin Adams.

Yes, and from the late First Century to about the middle Fourth Century, theologians were working overtime to remove evidence in Scripture of the Jewish influence on the belief-system of the early "Church" [which is itself a misnomer since it purported that there was such a thing as a "universal ('Catholic') Church" as opposed to the many "churches" that were growing in all communities where the Jews were deported]. They worked on this to the point of being anti-Semitic and the burning of books that showed their influence in the early church as well as the killing and burning of individuals who disagreed with the early "Roman Catholic Church." Writings would be allowed from some communities, but not from others, and the words "heresy" and "heretical" pop up in the writings frequently.

Also, in just the last 500 years, thanks to modern science (both real and science falsely so-called), words like "earth" and "heaven" have taken on new meanings. Before this modern era, "earth" meant "the dirt" or "the ground" or "the land." Now, we think of it meaning the "planet Earth" first!

The words "heaven" and the "heavens" referred to what one could see from the ground, looking up. In the daytime, that was the sky, the clouds, and the sun and sometimes the moon. During the night, it was the sky, the clouds, the moon most of the time, and the stars. Now, when one says "heaven" one will immediately think of "Heaven" as the "abode of God," words made popular in the Scofield Reference Edition of the King James Version of the Bible. Seldom does the word "heaven" today refer to the "sky." Unless it is in the plural, as "heavens," it's not thought of as the "sky" as it once was.

Now, to say "one will soar into the heavens" is ambiguous! Sometimes, it can mean the "sky" or the "atmosphere" when the context is about a balloon, a helicopter, or a plane, but if one is talking about a rocket, one might be referring to "space" outside of the atmosphere. Even then, it might be referring to the space between the earth and the moon, the earth and another planet, such as Mars, or outside of our Solar System. Science fiction now talks about "interplanetary travel" and "intergalactic travel," and some brave authors will even talk about greater distances than these. It's highly unlikely that biblical authors meant ANY of these modern distances when they used the words "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly."

During the times of the authors' writing their various works that became the "Book of books," societies were basically agricultural, and their focus was on the "land." For Jewish writings, even more importantly, their focus was on the "Land!" That is, it was on the "Land of Israel," which was acknowledged by some prophets really to be "God's Land." And, their focus was therefore on the weather, favorable or unfavorable, to the growing of crops and the raising of domestic animals.

With the rare occurrences of "shaameey hashaamayim" in the Hebrew of the Old Testament and the Greek adjective "epouranios" in the New Testament, the occurrences of "shaamaayim," "hashaamayim," "ouranos," and "ouranoi," all refer to this earth's "atmosphere," the "sky." The "sky" is where the "birds are said to fly" and where the "clouds build into heavier clouds able to drop water, snow, and ice" onto the "face of the earth."

So, with your findings in the middle, this is why I refer to the whole 2,000 years or so after the death of the Messiah Yeshua` as being the time when imperfect human beings with their assumed authorities worked to change subtly the Holy Bible to reflect what they believed.

[Retrobyter]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

Yes, this is a perfect example of what I stated in the previous post, dissecting a prophecy and attempting to render what follows as irrelevant regarding time sensitivity.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Sorry for the delay. I had a good post going, and lost it. (Not sure how.) Anyway, I've had to "reinvent the wheel," so to speak.

Yes, regarding Luke 4:16-21 (KJV), it's important to see where Yeshua` left off and what He left out of His quote from Isaiah 61:1-3, which is a complete sentence. He broke the sentence in half for a reason! In verse 21, He specifically said, as recorded in the Greek, "hee grafee hautee" which means "the Scripture this-one!"

He was LIMITING how much of the sentence He quoted was being fulfilled that day!

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

Jesus stopped reading at the point you ended the bold letters, but that does not negate the rest of the prophecy. And is an inclusive word, it would be like me offering you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that you accept, only to find peanut butter between the bread slices.  He specifically said on "this day is this scripture fulfilled", meaning that exactly what He said was fulfilled on that specific day, it doesn't stop the unfolding of the entirety of the prophecy.

No, but He didn't say that the rest of the prophecy would be fulfilled in the immediate days to come, either!

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

 How many days are there in the Jewish calendar for a year? 

There are 12 months x 29.5 days/month = 354 days. And, the months alternate in lengths of 29 days and 30 days. Because this is shy of the 365.2422 days/year that we have learned through observation and calculation, they have an extra month added 7 times in the 19-year cycle. The extra month is called "First Adar" and the regular Adar is next, called "Second Adar." During those "leap years," they have 13 months which either adds 29 or 30 more days to the year, giving 383 or 384 days. All of these values fluctuate because of eccentricities in the orbits of both the earth around the sun and the moon around the earth; so, they may add or subtract a day or two from any of these standard numbers.

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

I would suggest you consider that within the year of the Lord one should expect a day of vengeance to occur, because that is exactly what the prophecy states.  God didn't leave out the jelly, rest assured.

To the contrary, you're forgetting that Yeshua` offered the Kingdom, based on the number of Passovers that He attended, making about 3.5 years, which began at about His true 30th birthday (Luke 3:23) at the end of summer or the early part of the fall in 27 A.D.

(Shepherds wouldn't have been "abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night," Luke 2:8, at the beginning of winter in the Land of Israel! It's too cold by then! His birth was more likely at the first day of the Feast of Sukkot or the Feast of Tabernacles in late summer or early autumn, when He came to "tabernacle" with us. The time of "Christmas" could have been the anniversary of His conception, instead of His birth. His death and resurrection were at Passover of 30 A.D.)

Also, Yeshua` Himself put a GAP in the timing of the prophecies by leaving the Jews of Jerusalem "DESOLATE" in Matthew 23:38 for all the abominations they performed listed in Matthew 23:1-37. THIS is what broke His coming - His Advent - into two parts. He came the first time to fulfill the prophecies about haMaashiyach ben-Yosef ("the Messiah Son of Joseph"), and He will come the second time, His SECOND Coming or His SECOND Advent, to fulfill the prophecies about haMaashiyach ben-David ("the Messiah Son of David"). The Messiah Son of Joseph (the Genesis Joseph in Egypt) was the "suffering and dying Messiah." The Messiah Son of David is the "victorious and reigning Messiah." This division of prophecies has been known in Israel for hundreds of years before the Messiah came and offered the Kingdom to Israel in the First Century. And, while Yeshua` fulfilled about 400 prophecies about His Coming in the First Century, He has not yet fulfilled them all! There are still many prophecies yet to be fulfilled! These He will fulfill when He comes the Second time!

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

Unless you've changed your position on this I believe we have common ground in agreeing that the beginning of chapter 2 is a historical event that was literally a pestilence event.  While you and I agree on that, we also both know that many futurists want to transfer all of this as still to come.  Problem being, Peter quotes starting from verse 28.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joel prophesies that afterward the events that Peter declares fulfilled at Pentecost would take place, and that afterward references the first 27 verses of the chapter.  So all that preceded it had already taken place by Pentecost.  That includes verse 11.

11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

It also includes these verses which immediately precede it and most futurists claim to refer to the millennium

You're right that God sends His army of insects to infest Israel, found in Joel 1:

Joel 1:1-18 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.

2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers? 3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. 6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion. 7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth. 9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD'S ministers, mourn. 10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished. 12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God. 14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,

15 "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. 16 Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God? 17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered. 18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate."

 

But, one should also notice that there is a SECOND army, NOT called "God's army" that is found in Joel 2 (actually starting in chapter 1):

 

Joel 1:19-2:27 (KJV)

19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations!
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: 8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. 9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. 10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

12 "Therefore also now," saith the LORD, "turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."

14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? 15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say,

"Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, 'Where is their God?'"

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people,

"Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

 

Notice, this is the "northern army," not an army of insects. Insects do NOT start fires! And, they are led by one man, apparently, or are at least called by the name of one man, for the pronouns are all masculine and singular, even though "army" ("") is feminine.

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall NEVER be ashamed .
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

So, there are two armies here mentioned, the northern army, and God's great army, consisting of the insects listed.

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

In regards to chapter 3, it is clearly stated in the first verse that it is referencing the same time frame as chapter 2, not thousands of years into the future.  So as I stated originally, the issues come from people attempting to dissect a prophecy and separate parts into completely different periods of time.

I agree, but by chapter 2, we are already reading about the distant future! The devastation in Israel has been going on for a very LONG time, and it isn't over, yet, because we read that when they shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, they will praise YHWH their God, and His people shall NEVER be ashamed! The Hebrew phrase is "v-lo' yVoshuw ammiy l`owlaam." A word-for-word translation is "and-not shall-be-put-to-shame my-people into-[the]-age." "Never" was chosen to summarize the "not ... into-[the]-age."

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

One glaring contradiction that is overlooked, is that most futurists, particularly pre-tribbers, cling to the expectation that these armies are going to come and surround Jerusalem and God is going to miraculously deliver them.  HUGE problem in regards to Joel's prophecy.

Not really, when one takes this prophecy in conjunction with other similar prophecies, such as those of Zechariah and Micah and Isaiah. See, what is common to these prophecies is that the prophets are all led by God to reveal things close and things far away in timing. God, not restricted by time as we are, will often reveal the future as both near and far events together.

Yeshua`, being the Son of God and being on the same page as His Father, often did the same thing, such as in the Olivet Discourse, mentioned in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 22.

He would start off in the first century and then He would look ahead to the distant future. Then, He would snap back to the near future in the first century and then look ahead into the distant future, again. This sawtooth wave form is seen throughout the Olivet discourse. Any time that He is looking forward to the near future, He will use the pronouns "ye," "you," and "your." But, when He is seeing off into the distant future, He will change the pronouns to "they," "them," or "their," or speak more generally, not directly addressing His audience.

Here's a few examples:

Matthew 24:4-18 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ'; and shall deceive many. (These false Christs will come one at a time and probably with a gap of time between them; so, this will take time.)

6 "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (All these events take time to happen.) 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end (he who lasts to the end), the same shall be saved (rescued). 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then (ye) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 (Ye) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither (ye) let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. ...

See, He starts with "ye" but keeps looking off farther and farther into the future each time, but then He snaps back to the present with the words "ye," the subjective, plural form of the second-person or "you," the objective, plural form of the second-person. He does that with each new paragraph above. (Verses 15-18 just show the beginning of the next time He does this.)

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

Joel 3, verse 1.   1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

Time sensitivity, prophesies contain markers regarding the timing on things, not difficult to see when you examine history.  First question one must ask themselves, when did Joel receive this prophecy?

Well, some believe that God spoke through Yo'eel ("Joel") about 750 B.C., when Assyria took the Northern Kingdom of Israel away around 727 B.C., and through Yirmeyahuw ("Jeremiah") in 586 B.C., when Yhudah ("Judah") was taken captive to Babylon. The first captivity was completed in 586 B.C.

On 12/25/2021 at 12:28 AM, wingnut- said:

Second question one should ask themselves, Joel says shall bring captivity again, meaning it had already happened once, when was that?

There was no such time; it had NOT "already happened once." One must look up the Hebrew to be sure that one is properly understanding Joel 3:1. The Hebrew says,

Yo'eel 3:1

1 Kiy hinneeh bayyaamiym haaheemmaah uwVaa`eet hahiy' asher aashiyV et-shVuwt Yhuwdaah v-Iyruwshaaliym.

1 For behold in-the-days those-ones and-at-a-time that-one when I-bring-back (the next word is the direct object)-[the]-captives of-Judah and of-Jerusalem. 

"Shall-bring-again" means "shall-bring-back." The word "again" is not in the Hebrew.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

" not willing that any should perish " does not mean  not "wanting" anyone to perish.

Shalom, Walter Goraj jr, and Happy (Gentile) New Year! (Although, the year is still 5782 on the Jewish calendar!)

I believe that IF you were to take the time to look up "will" as an English verb, you will find...

Quote

 

USAGE

There is considerable confusion about when to use "shall" and "will." 

The traditional rule in standard English is that "shall" is used with first person pronouns (I and we) to form the future tense, while "will" is used with second and third persons (you, he, she, it, they): I shall be late; she will not be there.

To express a strong determination to do something, these positions are reversed, with "will" being used with the first person and "shall" with the second and third persons: I will not tolerate this; you shall go to school.

In practice, however, "shall" and "will" are today used more or less interchangeably in statements (although not in questions). Given that the forms are frequently contracted (we'll, she'll, etc.), there is often no need to make a choice between "shall" and "will," another factor no doubt instrumental in weakening the distinction. In modern English, the interchangeable use of "shall" and "will" is an acceptable part of standard US and British English.

 

So, when we read IN ENGLISH "God is not willing that any should perish," we are NOT talking about the third-person verb here. We are referring to the present participle, speaking of the INTENT of God!

And, if we actually look up the Greek wording of the sentence, we see ...

Petrou B 3:9

9 οὐ βραδύνει Κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.

Transliterated...

9 ou bradunei Kurios tees epaggelias, hoos tines braduteeta heegountai, alla makrothumei eis humas, mee boulomenos tinas apolesthai alla pantas eis metanoian chooreesai.

Direct word-for-word translation is ...

9 not does-delay [the]-Lord the promise, as some-people slowness esteem, but is-very-patient into us, not willing [for]-anyone to-perish but all into repentance to-come.

8 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

If God did not want anyone to perish, then no one would perish.

You're forgetting that God has given us human beings free will! Furthermore, He ALLOWS for us to choose Him or to choose otherwise. He has ALLOWED for sin to be our choice, if that is our choice! He has ALLOWED for sin to be our choice, even though He KNOWS the consequences of the wrong choice, and warns us against the wrong choice!

8 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You may disagree all you want on this point but I'm sorry God is Sovereign. 

OF COURSE, YHWH God is Sovereign! (Oh, and you really need punctuation in your sentence!) However, He is a BENEVOLENT King, not WANTING them to perish, but ALLOWING them to do so, if they choose to do so!

8 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

He will have mercy on whom He will ( Romans 9:15).

And, whom He will, He hardeneth! Nevertheless, He's NOT TELLING US whom He does and does not choose on whom to have mercy! That's a VERY IMPORTANT POINT for Calvinists to remember!

It's like a doorway above which is written "whosoever will may come" on the front side, and when one walks through that doorway and looks back, one will read "chosen before the beginning of the world!"

8 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

"Willing" means to " intend" or " be disposed" or " be minded"  (boulomai, strongs #1014). 

When you apply the understanding of the true gospel it is clear that in 2Peter 3:9, God does not " intend" for any of His chosen to perish...they  will come to repentance.  

No, He's not just talking about "His chosen" in 2 Peter 3:9. He is talking about ANYONE (TINAS) "to perish!"

Edited January 1, 2022 by Retrobyter
to fix the reference and the transliteration