Paradigm shift in Christian thinking over 2000 years

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

RB, I respectfully disagree with what I just read from you. And here's why. After 20 years of comparing scripture with scripture,  and with and (only with) the guidance of the Holy Spirit,  the conclusion is that predestination ( I would rather avoid the term " calvinism ") should be  the  lense in which we view all topics of the Bible. Only then will everything find harmony.  So, some time ago I decided to make  Romans 9: 21-24 the " foundational verses " which you may prayerfully ponder, to let the Word of God speak:

" Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?  What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 If you would like to discuss these versrs before anything else,  I would appreciate that.

 

Shalom, Walter Goraj jr.

Sure. I'll discuss these verses with you. "TULIP Calvinism" is what I call what you are describing as "predestination." And, of course, TULIP stands for ...

'T stands for “total depravity:” We are all sinners all the way through (Gen. 6:5; Rom. 3:23).

U stands for “unconditional election:” God chose to save me for reasons known only to him (Eph. 1:4-5).

L stands for “limited atonement:” Christ got what he paid for when he died for his people, and his people alone (John 10:14-15).

I stands for “irresistible grace:” When the Spirit changes my heart, I will and I must come to God in faith (John 6:44-45). And, finally,

P stands for the “perseverance of the saints:” My faithful God will see me safely to my eternal home (Rom. 8:28, 30).'

as listed by Tenth Presbyterian Church

I consider myself a 3-point Calvinist in that from TULIP, I only believe in TUP. I do believe in the Total Depravity of human beings, the Unconditional Election for those whom God chooses to justify, and the Perseverance FOR the Saints, GOD'S Perseverance, that is. (It's not really about human beings who are considered "holy ones" or "saints"; it's all about YHWH God's PERSISTENT INVOLVEMENT with His children's lives.)

I do NOT believe in Limited Atonement, "for God so loved THE WORLD that He GAVE His only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

And, I do NOT believe in Irresistable Grace. People have free will and can CHOOSE to reject God's Grace ... to their own demise. John 3:16 says "WHOSOEVER!" That opens up the flood gates of God's Grace to all, if they accept it.

Now, let's look at Romans 9:21-24 within context:

Romans 9:1-24 (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but,

"In Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Genesis 21:12)

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of THE PROMISE are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise,

"At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." (Genesis 18:10, 14)

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her,

"The elder (Esau) shall serve the younger (Jacob = Israel)." (Genesis 25:23)

13 As it is written,

"Jacob (Israel) have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Malachi 1:2-3)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (Exodus 33:19)

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,

"Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Exodus 9:16)

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me,

"Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,

"Why hast thou made me thus?"

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee (spelled in Greek "omega with rough breathing-sigma-eta-epsilon with a grave accent" or "Ὡσηὲ" and pronounced "Ho-say-EH," Hosea),

"I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved." (Hosea 2:23)

26 "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them,

"'Ye are not my people'; there shall they be called 'the children of the living God'." (Hosea 1:10)

27 Esaias (spelled in Greek "eta with smooth breathing-sigma-alpha-iota with acute accent inside a diaerisis-alpha-sigma" or "Ἠσαΐας" and pronounced "Ay-sahee'-as," Isaiah) also crieth concerning Israel,

"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth." (Isaiah 10:22-23 LXX)

29 And as Esaias said before,

"Except the Lord of Sabaoth (Hebrew: ADONAY [YHWH] Shava'owt had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma (Hebrew: Sdom of Sodom), and been made like unto Gomorrha (Hebrew: `Amoraah or Gomorrah)." (Isaiah 1:9)

 

Do you see the Hebraic nature of this passage? God is talking about how various persons enter into His equation for the purpose of preparing the way for His Son to be born and calling out a people for Himself.

(More to come...)

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Yeah. The " various persons" are of no rhyme or reason. The people of Israel were once God's representative of His kingdom on earth. 

They were an example set forth to illustrate that salvation , or a perfect relationship with God can never be achieved through our works of righteousness. That changed under the new covenant, in which  God reveals what was from the beginning,  eternal redemption through the offering of His dear Son. Not by daily sacrifices and ordinance keeping. He did this for a great many people only known to Himself. They were not any more " special " than someone else.  They came from all nations, and even before the world began He made atonement for their sins, for He was the " Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"  (Rev. 13:8).

So this is the underlying context of Roman's 9 ( among many other chapters) and quite frankly the student of the Bible will never be able to fully appreciate it's truths until they understand and accept predestination as the foundation. Sorry, I can't see it any other way.

And I don't really understand why we have to be schooled in Hebrew jargon and Jewish tradition and why such a great emphasis on the nation of Israel which once was relevant but no longer is. Any promise that God made to them was  fulfilled a long time ago. They rejected my Saviour and will continue to do so until judgment day, when they, along with the rest of the unsaved will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming. We have to really be thankful that God predestined many Jews and Gentiles otherwise we'd all be in the same position...eternally screwed.

And, they will be again! They're not "over and done with" nor are they a "thing of the past!" They are and always WILL be "God's Chosen People." As Paul says 2 chapters on, 

Romans 11:1-5 (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid! (Greek: mee genoito! = "Never may-it-be!") For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 

3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life!"

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him?

"I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election (the choosing) of [God's] grace.

and

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should (permanently) fall? God forbid! (Greek: mee genoito! = "Never may-it-be!"): but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy! 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches!

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Gentile = non-Israelite), being a wild olive tree (an oleaster tree), wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 BOAST NOT AGAINST THE BRANCHES! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well (Okay); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear!: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off! 

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (the oleaster tree), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (secret), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9 [LXX]; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
BUT as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (I.e., God doesn't renege upon His gifts or calling!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It's just plain WRONG to think that "Christianity" and "churches" replace Israel!

 

[Retrobyter]

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Let's see if we can't persuade you to the L and I. 

 

First off, as colloquial and neat as it is, Limited Atonement is not "Christ got what he paid for." A website statement of faith is not the same as a more thorough doctrinal statement or position. The doctrine of Limited Atonement says Christ's work at Calvary is sufficient for all to be saved, but it is efficacious or efficient only in the lives of those who are saved. John 3:16 is 100% consistent with the doctrine of Limited Atonement. If John 3:16 is the reason whereby you disagree with the doctrine, then you don't have a basis for disagreement. 

Hi, Josheb, and Happy New Year!

I hope you and yours are all doing well. I learned just a few days ago that my sister in Ohio contracted Covid-19 omicron strain. She's doing alright; she had some tough times breathing, but she had received her shots beforehand, and it was more like a badly congested cold for her.

John 3:16 is not the only verse upon which I hang my beliefs, although it is one of the more well-known verses in the Bible. I don't try to match my verses to any doctrine I hold. I match the doctrines I investigate to the Scriptures. So, I don't ask "is John 3:16 consistent with the doctrine of Limited Atonement?" I ask rather "is Limited Atonement consistent with the Scriptures, such as John 3:16?"

I actually agree with you when you say, "The doctrine of Limited Atonement says Christ's work at Calvary is sufficient for all to be saved, but it is efficacious or efficient only in the lives of those who are saved." The problem to me is one of a PRACTICAL nature. God doesn't tell us whom He has saved or plans to save, although I'm sure that He already knows who will accept Him and who will not. As a theoretical stance, Limited Atonement has its values, but from our perspective, we cannot live our Christian lives like that. One cannot look at a person, like a Hell's Angels biker, and say, "Well, it's obvious that he's a reprobate! God cannot be working in his life."

We just DO NOT KNOW WITH WHOM GOD IS WORKING behind the scenes! Thus, for us, it is more "efficient" to remember "whosoever will may come." And, it is our DUTY to "Go ... therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...." (Matthew 28:19-20)

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

It is comment for errors to be made in all the five points. Such as Total Depravity simply meaning the effects of sin are so total that they prevent humanity from coming to God in its own might for salvation. It does not mean "we are sinners all the way through." It is true: we are sinners all the way through, but the "total depravity" is about the effect of sin on the matter of salvation, not the ontology of humanity. Tenth Pres got it wrong.

I can see where you are coming from here, but "the ontology of humanity," our basic "ability" to get things wrong and to get them wrong in a SPECTACULAR way, is the REASON why there is a such a need for God's justification ("salvation"). From our very first "cry for mommy" that sounds like we're being murdered, the first lie we learn as an infant, we are plagued with selfishness that leads to sin. The moment that infant is picked up, he or she is happily satisfied and quits crying! We begin to sin long before we're old enough to know the consequences of sin with God. And, God doesn't forget (until He chooses to do so). So, our lives, which includes the fourth dimension of "time," includes all the sins we've sinned in our lifetimes. All of these sins, past, present, and future, must be satisfied for God to have relationship with an individual. So, when we read,

Isaiah 64:5-7 (KJV)

5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Yesha`yahuw (Isaiah) understood our depravity and how that it separated us from YHWH God.

We ARE sinners all the way through! Even when we tend to be "benevolent" and "give charitably to others," we aren't even aware of how self-absorbing that can be! Does one do "charitable deeds" for others to be seen? Does he or she "act benevolently" for what he or she can get out of it, such as contributions for the poor as "tax-deductible contributions?" No, sometimes there are "strings attached" that even the giver may be consciously unaware he or she is receiving that he or she may have calculated subconsciously! Yeshua` said,

Matthew 7:9-11 (KJV)

9 "Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil (Greek: poneeroi = "evil/bad/wicked/malicious/slothful ones") know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

Even if a person gives good gifts to his children, what motivates him to do so? Self-propagation? Ego? Tit-for-tat? Is he doing it purely out of love, or is he looking forward to his "golden years" with the hopes that his heir(s) will take care of him in his old age? Is he giving good gifts because he is proud of his son, or is he concerned with what others think of the gifts he is giving to his son? What drives us - what motivates us - may be a mystery even to ourselves!

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Similarly, it is common for Limited Atonement to be misconstrued in various ways. For example, the Wiki article of LA states, "According to Limited Atonement, Christ died for the sins of the elect alone, and no atonement was provided for the reprobate," but to be wholly accurate that sentence should read, "The effect of Christ's death is for the elect alone, but it is sufficient for all to be saved." There is no atoning effect on those not saved. That death, again, is powerful and meritorious enough for all to be saved but it is simply and self-evidently not having an atoning effect in the lives of all. It affects all people in another way, though: it is by Calvary we'll all be judged. The LA is related to the UE. You've said you agree with unconditional election, the position that God made His decision based on reasons of His own, on His will and purpose and not anything to do with the quality of the sinner being saved.

Yes, but one must realize that although God has DECLARED the end from the beginning, He still doesn't recognize the hypothetical until one acts upon it! Take, for instance, the account of Avraham's sacrifice of his son Yitschaq's life upon Mount Moriah. It wasn't until Avraham raised the knife and was ready to plunge it into his son, did God stop him! The REASON for stopping him is enlightening:

Genesis 22:11-19 (KJV)

11 And the angel of the LORD (Hebrew: mal'akh YHWH = "a-messenger of-YHWH") called unto him out of heaven (Hebrew: min-hashaamayim = "from-the-skies"), and said,

"Abraham, Abraham!":

and he said,

"Here am I." (Hebrew: "Hineeniy!" = "See me!")

12 And he said,

"Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh (Hebrew: YHWH-Yir'eh): as it is said to this day,

"In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen."

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said,

"'By myself have I sworn,' saith the LORD (YHWH), 'for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.'"

19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

It wasn't until Avraham was willing to the actual deed of sacrificing his only heir, that God CONFIRMED the promise to Avraham. YHWH God SAW the dedication Avraham had to Him, even over the life of his only son, his heir!

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The synergists say God conditions His decision on the unregenerate sinner's unregenerate decision, so they condition God's decision on a sinner's decision of flesh. Technically, the synergist also has a form of Limited Atonement, but the limit is a limit on God and a limit couched in sinful flesh, as well as a limit on who actually gets atoned for. Their atonement is a dispositional atonement that is not realized for those not choosing God. The monergist also believes the atonement will have no saving consequence on those not believing God but the monergist predicates that on God's not-sinner-influenced decision and the synergist predicates that on the sinner's decision. You have said you subscribe to God choosing for His own reasons so if you're going to be consistent with the U then you should re-examine the L. 

I don't think so.

I believe that God conditioned His decision before the foundation of the world. Just the same, He doesn't recognize the decisions human beings make until they actually make them, even though He already knows what those decisions will be, because He acted in the Creation to set the ball in motion toward those decisions.

The human beings MUST make their own decisions because God MUST be able fairly to judge them. It must be THEIR responsibility or they should not be judged.

I don't know how you would label me with these responses, synergist, monergist, or something else, but I cannot put "blame" on the Creator YHWH God for either the choices of human beings or for their sins. They do indeed make their own decisions and God allows them to do so. Just the same, He'll not be blind-sided by their choices or their sins. He doesn't just KNOW the end from the beginning; He DECLARED the end from the beginning! Although He is not bound by the fourth dimension of time (or any of the dimensions of this physical universe), He still respects His own choice to bind human beings to these dimensions. Thus, He doesn't recognize our choices until we make them, even though He already knew how we would choose.

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

When God made the plan of salvation did He do so with the intent to save anyone? This is a very important question because the synergist dependency upon the sinner's will means it was possible for no one to choose Christ! That would have been a waste of blood. If the question about God's intent is answered in the affirmative, yes, God made His plan with an intent to save some then the question becomes, "Did God know who He was going to save?" because if it was a crap shoot and God placed Himself in a position of relying solely on the sinner's will then He knew whom He would save based on something other than His own reasons. You have then run into conflict with your stated view God decided for His own reasons, your acceptance of Unconditional Election. So, if God made His plan for salvation with an intention to definitely save someone AND He decided who was going to be saved based on His own reasons alone then He also decided to save at least one specific person. It wasn't a crap shoot. 

Yes, God made the plan of His justification with the intent of justifying many individuals through the sacrifice of His Son, His Messiah; however, He also made it possible for human beings to make their own choices legitimately. He already knew what choices they would choose, but He did not force anyone to make those choices. He just KNOWS what they will choose. By making their own choices, they are not only bound by those choices, they are responsible for those choices.

I suppose that His very choice to perform the 6-day Creation at all "forced" the decisions that people would make, but they are not obvious to anyone else but Him. It's like a game of billiards. He already knows how the ball will bounce off each bumper and where it will end up exactly. However, to the spectator, one cannot see how the ball will go. God will even put a little "English" on the ball from time to time and perform a "miracle" shot to amaze further the spectator.

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Then there is the question of whether or not God got what he paid for. Did Christ NOT get what he paid for? The implications of Christ NOT getting what he paid for is that Christ's blood was squandered by God, not just man.

Not at all. The Messiah of God was sufficient for all, as you've said. Therefore, if they choose to accept His sacrifice and ask God through it for His forgiveness and mercy, then "God gets what He paid for." If one does not choose to accept the Messiah as God's Sacrifice for that person, as if to say "No thanks, God; I'll get there on my own merits," then they will be righteously judged for their affront! In that case, His blood is not "squandered"; it is the BASIS for God's righteous judgment against him or her!

Remember how the Messiah was announced by Shim`own ("Simeon"):

Luke 2:25-35 (KJV)

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ (YHWH'S Messiah). 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus (Yeshua`), to do for him after the custom of the law (circumcision), 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel!"

33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother,

"Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

And, remember what John said about what the Son of God said:

John 5:19-23 (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

If, instead, we look at the sufficiency of Christ's blood to save all as a matter of God's generosity then an entirely different logical, doctrinal outcome occurs. God did not waste a drop of blood. He was instead more gracious, more merciful, more generous than He needed to be. Just as He knew sin would occur without His having to Cause sin Himself, He also knew some would stay dead in sin. They did not need to choose to reject Christ; they just needed to stay as they already are: dead in sin and thereby objects of wrath. God provided generously, so generously that no one was without excuse. Calvary is SALVIFICALLY sufficient for all, but efficient only in the lives of the same. As a basis for Christ as Judge, Calvary is both sufficient and efficient in the lives of every single human who has and will ever draw breath. The one who paid the price is judge, The chief difference being Christ the Judge sits in our place in the docks on Sentencing Day, and the unrepentant sinner stands before Christ in his/her own sin. There was atonement made for them but there is no atonement available to them on that day. There's no standing before God on Judgment/Sentencing Day and saying, "Oh my, I did not realize that whole Jesus thing was for real! Lemme have some of that salvation stuff now, please. I don't wanna face God on my own." 

The decision was made long before they got there. The choice not to decide is a decision.

And it was not theirs to make apart from God. 

And what God decided He decided for His own reasons. 

Because God gave His son for the sins of the world. 

Again, don't forget that it's BY that blood the world will be judged. His blood is not just for "salvation" or God's justification of an individual; it's also for PROOF in the trial against humanity in the judgment!

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You also have conflicts with the Total Depravity you say you accept and believe and the notion of free will. If people are thoroughly sinful then the will is not free. It is adulterated by sin.

No, it's not. Their sins ARE their choices of free will! There's no such thing as "inherent sin." What we inherit from our mother and father, our ancestors, and all the way back to Adam and Chavah was the PROPENSITY to sin! We are inherently PRONE to sin because we are SELFISH and SELF-CENTERED and SELF-RELIANT! Even as little kids, we are prone to be self-occupied; we must be TAUGHT to be social! "Share your toys with (another boy or girl who doesn't have a toy)!" We must LEARN to "put ourselves in someone else's shoes" and see things from his or her perspective.

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Humans may be able to make choices, but their choices will always be a consequence of the person's thorough sinfulness. Limiting God to the sinner's will is a problem if you also believe God is sovereign. It is popular for some synergists to say God limits Himself but there is no such scripture in the Bible. 

Here are some sources for better understanding Limited Atonement.

Ligonier Ministries
Monergism.com
Theopedia

Thank you for your selection. I'll read up on them.

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

So please reconsider your position.

I'll come back and address the Irresistible Grace matter separately because IG is not about the sinner.

Actually, I'm comfortable with my position, and I believe that it stems from the Word of God; however, I look forward to your next post.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all.

Another term that needs to be discussed is "holiness."

"Holiness" is NOT the same thing as "righteousness." If it was, there would be no need for one of them.  In fact, the two terms mean entirely different things.

To be "holy," in the Hebrew word "kadowsh," means to be "weighty"; it means to be "special" or "important," as a "weighty matter."

When used of YHWH God, it's quite obvious that He is ALL important! He is the NECESSARY part of any person's life! In fact, He is THRICE necessary! "Kadowsh! Kadowsh! Kadowsh!"

When used of human beings, they are SPECIAL, literally!

In the dictionary, we find ...

Quote

 

spe·cial| ˈspeSHəl | 

adjective 

better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual: they always made a special effort at Christmas. 

• exceptionally good or precious: she's a very special person. 

•  belonging specifically to a particular person or place: we want to preserve our town's special character. 

• designed or organized for a particular person, purpose, or occasion: we will return by special coaches. 

• (of a subject) studied in particular depth. 

• used to denote education for students with particular educational requirements arising from physical or intellectual disability or behavioral difficulties. 

• Mathematics denoting a group consisting of matrices of unit determinant. 

noun 

a thing, such as an event, product, or broadcast, that is designed or organized for a particular occasion or purpose: television's election night specials. 

• a dish not on the regular menu at a restaurant but served on a particular day. 

• informal a product or service offered at a temporarily reduced price: Mrs. Hill was a careful shopper, choosing house brands and in-store specials.

 

These definitions for the word give one an understanding of the word as used in various contexts. From a biblical standpoint, we recognize YHWH God HIMSELF as being "better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual," and "exceptionally good or precious." Therefore, He is HOLY!

When YHWH God Himself so designates a thing, a place, a person, or a people as  "belonging specifically to a particular Person or place," and "designed or organized for a particular Person, purpose, or occasion," we recognize that thing, place, person, or people as being "holy," especially selected and chosen by God for a particular service to Himself and to others. Ritually speaking, these things or people were shown to be special to God by cleansing those things or people, or putting something significant upon them, such as an anointing oil or the blood of a sacrifice. For the people known as the "children of Israel," their value was shown through the ritual cutting of circumcision, the eighth day after a male child's birth. This singled them out as a people especially selected by YHWH God for His own purposes.

There is no inherent goodness or righteousness in the selection of an individual or a people being "special" or "holy" to God. On the other hand, YHWH God DID demand righteousness from His people, by keeping God's commandments. HOWEVER, we have multiple examples of "holy" people who were NOT "righteous," as commanded! THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO REMEMBER!

Holiness DOES NOT EQUAL Righteousness!

Zig Ziglar once quoted John Crudele, "Kids spell 'love' T-I-M-E."

And, this is how a righteous God "loves" or "hates" an individual.

When He loves someone, like Ya`aqoV ("Jacob"), He spends TIME on him! He works with him, and He chastises him when he fails to do righteously.

When God hates someone, like Esav ("Esau"), He ignores him! He refuses to work with someone whom He knows wouldn't appreciate it anyway! Esav SOLD his birthright for a bowl of pottage -a bowl of red soup or stew - because "he was simply famished!" Esav was nicknamed "Edowm" ("Red") because of the RED pottage, and his blessing as the firstborn was stolen by his brother. Thus, God was justified for predicting that "the elder would serve the younger," and Esav couldn't change the results of his failure, even when he begged for it! He found "no place of repentance."

Hebrews 12:14-17 (KJV)

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. (See Genesis 27.)

Edited January 23, 2022 by Retrobyter
to correct a spelling error

[Retrobyter]

Again, shalom to all.

The reason why this is such an important distinction, that is, between righteousness and holiness, is because people constantly think one has to be righteous to be holy. But, that's just simply NOT TRUE!

Instead, one can be a member of the children of Israel and therefore be holy, even though he or she may be blind to the righteousness of God that He will bestow upon a person when that person comes to Him for His justification ("salvation").

If one of you thinks this isn't true, think about how the pots and utensils in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple were considered "holy" to the LORD. Since when do THESE THINGS need God's justification or "salvation"?

So, if one considers a dichotomy of unholy and holy, and another dichotomy of unrigheous and righteous, we have four distinct possibilities.

One could be unholy and unrighteous (as many in this world are);
one could be unholy and righteous (as many Christians in this world try to be);
one could be holy and unrighteous (as many Jews are); or 
one could be holy and righteous (as most true Believers are).

The difference between a person who is unholy and unrighteous and one who is holy and unrighteous is not recognized by many Christians today. They think that just because the Jews are unrighteous, then they cannot possibly be holy, but that's not what the Word of God teaches. The Word of God says that the Jews, although they are blind to the truth and are unrighteous, they are still God's holy people, a people with whom God will still work and chastise. But, chastisement is NOT abandonment!

[Retrobyter]

On 7/29/2017 at 10:01 PM, Retrobyter said:

...

 

...

Shalom, everyone (anyone?).

I know that this was started years ago, but the longer I see people using the wrong words for things they mean, the more I feel it should be revisited.

First, look at the diagram: These are seven words that I believe have been redefined down through the last 2,000 years. I'm not saying WHEN they were redefined, but I AM saying that I think they've been redefined because we've lost the original meanings and have attempted to "fit" them into our frameworks of theology.

Starting with "Christ," let's look at these words:

"Christ" is an "Anglicizing" of the Greek word "Χριστός" transliterated as "Christos." This is a TRANSLATION of the Hebrew word "מָשִׁיחַ" or "Maashiyach." Both words mean "an-anointed-one." The verb "maashaach" means "to rub" oil upon a person.

There are a few (maybe more?) who think that "Christ" is Jesus' last name!

Others think of "Christ" being a NEW name for Jesus.

Some think the word "Christ" means that Jesus was GOD.

However, the term "Christos," like the original word "Maashiyach," means an "Anointed One," and it was actually a TITLE for a person, one who was "Anointed" or "Rubbed" for a particular service to YHWH God Almighty. There were four occupations for which a person was anointed:

One might be anointed ...
1) to be a PRIEST of God as a descendant of Aaron and his sons,
2) to be a PROPHET of God, as was Elisha,
3) to be a JUDGE over Israel, as was Samuel (although he was also a priest), and
4) to be a KING of Israel, as were Saul, David, and Solomon.

In fact, a king of Israel has the role of being the "Supreme Court Justice" for the nation. There were judges within Israel in many different towns, but it they had a matter they couldn't determine, they would escalate the matter to the king!

So, Saul was a maashiyach or a messiah, a christos or christ, as was David, Solomon, and several other kings from Judah.

God gave David a promise - a one-sided covenant - in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17. Here's the English translation of 2 Samuel 7:

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV modified)

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains!"

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that [is] in thine heart; for the LORD [is] with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in [any] house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all [the places] wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?' "'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great [men] that [are] in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges [to be] over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

(Again, I use GREEN for narration, ROYAL PURPLE for the words of YHWH God, RED for the words of a messiah or the Messiah, and BLUE for the words of anyone else. I also add nested quotes in the English translation to show who's saying what.)

So, God promised David a "seed" after David had "slept with his fathers." This does not refer solely to Solomon, for Solomon was made king BEFORE David died. He promised that "He would be his Father, and (the seed) would be His Son!" Notice: He did NOT say, "He would be LIKE His Son!" He said, that "David's seed" would build a house for God's Name, and that God would establish His throne FOREVER! He also promised that David's house and his kingdom would be established FOREVER before David, and that his throne would be established FOREVER! Thus, there would be a "seed of David" who would be the ULTIMATE AND FINAL King of Israel! He came to be called "THE Messiah of God."

So, the paradigm shift here is that the "christs" were begun with God's anointing of the priests under Moses, his own brother Aharown ("Aaron") and his sons, the PRIESTS. It was also the anointing that God's spokesmen, the prophets, might receive, and the KINGS of Israel would receive, who would also be JUDGES. All of these were legitimate "christs" which God SELECTED (by anointing them with His Spirit), BUT today, the word "Christ" SOLELY refers among Christians to Jesus "Christ" assumed to being God Himself, rather than His Son, as promised.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, to any and all.

The second term that should be addressed is the term "heaven":

There are five words in the Greek and one word in the Hebrew that were translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly."

The Hebrew word is שָׁמָיִם transliterated as "shaamaayim," which is a DUAL word in Hebrew. Hebrew has THREE numbers: singular, DUAL, and plural. For English, it's like saying "a pair of (things)."

It was introduced in Genesis 1:1 in the "pre-summary" of the creation acccount. In Genesis 1:1, the word is given with the definite article prefix, "ha-," הַשָּׁמַיִם or "hashaamayim," meaning of course, "the-heavens."

However, it's also important to note that the word is first GIVEN in verse 8:

Here's the text in the KJV:

Genesis 1:1-8 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said,

"Let there be light":

and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven (Shaamaayim)." And the evening and the morning were the second day.

At this point in time, there were only TWO pairs of things: (1) the light/darkness of Day One (יוֹם אֶחָד = Yowm 'Echaad) and (2) the waters under/above the "heavens" of Day Two (יוֹם שֵׁנִי = Yowm Sheeniy). I believe the pair for which this firmament was named was the light/darkness pair; thus, there was a daytime sky and a nighttime sky, and that pair was called "shaamaayim" or "skies" in dual.

This is a purely PHYSICAL thing! It doesn't "imply the whole universe," nor does it "imply a spiritual realm!" It was a thing that had to do with the creation of life upon this planet. No more.

Other places in Genesis 1-2 that use the word "shaamaayim" are ...

Genesis 1:9; 1:14; 1:15; 1:17; 1:20; 1:26; 1:28; 1:3o; 2:1; 2:4; 2:19; and 2:20.

Here's the rest of the two chapters with the words highlighted with boldface type and all capital letters and underlined:

Genesis 1:9-31; 2:1-25 (KJV)

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the HEAVEN be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear":

and it was so. 10 And God called the dry [land] "Earth"; and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas": and God saw that [it was] good. 11 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth":

and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said,

"Let there be lights in the firmament of the HEAVEN to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the HEAVEN to give light upon the earth":

and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the HEAVEN to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of HEAVEN."

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 22 And God blessed them, saying,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. 26 And God said,

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the AIR, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the AIR, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the AIR, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat":

and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

1 Thus the HEAVENS and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the HEAVENS, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first [is] Pison: that [is] it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where [there is] gold; 12 And the gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river [is] Gihon: the same [is] it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river [is] Hiddekel: that [is] it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river [is] Euphrates.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

18 And the LORD God said,

"[It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the AIR; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the AIR, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said,

"This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Notice that, in just two chapters, the SAME WORD in Hebrew is translated three different ways in English: "heaven," "heavens," and "air!" Was that really necessary?

 

There is a PHRASE in Hebrew that applied to things outside of our skies:

שְׁמֵי הַשָּׁמָיִם or "shmeey hashaamayim." Remembering that God gave the name "shaamaayim" to the raaqiya` or "expanse," we need to investigate the word "raaqiya`":

The Hebrew word is רָקִיעַ or "raaqiya`" and means the "expanse" between the waters below it and the waters above it. Many definitions make this to be a solid, but the word comes from רָקַע or "raaqa`," which means "to spread out," "to stretch," "to beat thin."

There are four states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma.

In a solid, the molecules are in close proximity and they vibrate, but do not move out of their arrangement; they do not lose their shape.

In a liquid, the molecules have more energy and vibrate more energetically, losing their shape, but still adhere to each other.

In a gas, the molecules have even more energy, and the molecules fly apart from each other; so, they not only lose their shape, but they lose their adherence.

In a plasma, the molecules and atoms have so much energy that even the electrons leave the molecules and atoms!

We think of "thinning something out" as beating metal thin to spread it over something else, either another metal or wood or stone. But, God could simply add energy to existing matter and spread the molecules of that matter out into a gas! That's what I believe He did to create the atmosphere of this planet.

That both raaqiya` and shaamaayim have to do with the earth's atmosphere is found in the LIMITING FACTOR of flying birds! Seen in verses 1:20, 26, and 28, and 2:19 and 20, the birds FLY in the "raaqiya`" called by God "shaamaayim." Some birds, like sparrows, doves, and hummingbirds, fly low to the ground, but other birds, like eagles and condors and hawks fly at MUCH higher altitudes!

So, to say "shmeey hashaamayim" is to say the "expanse of the expanses," and if the gases are expanding molecules to form the atmosphere, the expanding of them even farther apart would lead to the emptiness of SPACE!

One more thing to mention about the Hebrew words: He also said that He put "LIGHTS" into "the firmament of heaven" in verses 1:14 and 17 on Day Four, after already creating "light" and dividing it from "darkness" in verses 1:3-5 on Day One, calling the light "Day" and the darkness "Night." I'll write another post just for this:

(To be continued...)

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

To be continued..

Leaping forward to Revelation: KJV;Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Per W. A. Criswell The translation"hell" is misleading. "Hell" is the proper translation of gehenna (Grk), as in Matthew 10:28; in which the reference is to the place of eternal confinement for lost  men. The word in this text is "hades" which in most cases refers simply to the realm of the dead. ( cf Matthew 11:23 note). ...which is used  in the LXX to translate sheol ( Hebrew).

Fun stuff eh?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to any and all.

Regarding the light and the lights created.

First, I'm going to give you the Hebrew of Days One and Four:

וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי אוֹר וַיְהִי־אוֹר׃
וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָאוֹר כִּי־ טוֹב וַיַּבְדֵּל אֱלֹהִיםבֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶׁךְ׃
וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ קָרָא לָיְלָה וַיְהִי־עֶרֶב וַיְהִי־בֹקֶר יוֹם אֶחָד׃ פ

{The fei (פ) terminates a paragraph in Hebrew and terminates the text for Day One.}

The transliteration of these three verses is ...

3 Vayyo'mer 'Elohiym yhiy 'owr vayhiy-'owr:
4 Vayyar' 'Elohiym 'et-haa'owr kiy-TowV vayyaVdeel 'Elohiym beeyn haa'owr uwVeeyn hachoshekh:
5 Vayyiqraa' 'Elohiym laa'owr yowm vlachoshekh qaaraa' laaylaah vayhiy-`ereV vayhiy-boqer yowm 'echaad: F

This translates word-for-word into English as ...

3 And-said God "Let-there-be light" and-there-was - light:
4 And-saw God (d.o.->)-the-light that-it-was - Good and-divided God between the-light and-between the darkness:
5 And-gave-the-name God to-the-light "Day" and-to-the-darkness he-gave-the-name "Night"; and-there-was - evening and-there-was - morning Day One: <EOP>

The Hebrew of Day Four is ...

וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים יְהִי מְאֹרֹת בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמַיִם לְהַבְדִּיל בֵּין הַיּוֹם וּבֵין הַלָּיְלָה וְהָיוּ לְאֹתֹת וּלְמוֹעֲדִים וּלְיָמִים וְשָׁנִים׃
וְהָיוּ לִמְאוֹרֹת בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמַיִם לְהָאִיר עַל־הָאָרֶץ וַיְהִי־כֵן׃
וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים אֶת־שְׁנֵי הַמְּאֹרֹת הַגְּדֹלִים אֶת־הַמָּאוֹר הַגָּדֹל לְמֶמְשֶׁלֶת הַיּוֹם וְאֶת־הַמָּאוֹר הַקָּטֹן לְמֶמְשֶׁלֶת הַלַּיְלָה וְאֵת הַכּוֹכָבִים׃
וַיִּתֵּן אֹתָם אֱלֹהִים בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמָיִם לְהָאִיר עַל־הָאָרֶץ׃
וְלִמְשֹׁל בַּיּוֹם וּבַלַּיְלָה וּלֲהַבְדִּיל בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶׁךְ וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים כִּי־ טוֹב׃
וַיְהִי־עֶרֶב וַיְהִי־בֹקֶר יוֹם רְבִיעִי׃ פ

The transliteration of these verses is ...

14 Vayyo'mer 'Elohiym yhiy m'orot birqiya` hashshaamayim lhaVdiyl beeyn hayyowm uwVeeyn hallaaylaah vhaayuw l'otot uwlmow`adiym uwlyaamiym vshaaniym:
15 Vhaayuw lim'owrot birqiya` hashshaamayim lhaa'iyr `al-haa'aarets vayhiy-keen:
16 Vayya`as 'Elohiym 'et-shneey hamm'orot haggdoliym 'et-hammaa'owr haggaadol lmemshelet hayyowm v'et-hamaa'owr haqqaaTon lmemshelet hallaylaah v'eet hakowkhaaViym:
17 Vayyiteen 'otaam 'Elohiym birqiya` hashshaamaayim lhaa'iyr `al-haa'aarets:
18 Vlimshol bayyowm uwVallaylaah uwlahaVdiyl beeyn haa'owr uwVeeyn hachoshekh vayyar' 'Elohiym kiy-TowV:
19 Vayhiy-`ereV vayhiy-boqer yowm rViy`iy: F

The word-for-word English translation is ...

14 And-said God "Let-there-be from-lights in-the-expanse of-the-skies to-divide between the-day and-between the-night and-be for-signs and-for-holy-day-cycles and-for-days and-years:
15 And-let-them-be for-from-lights in-the-expanse of-the-skies to-give-light upon-the-earth" and-it-was - so:
16 And-made God (d.o.->)-two of-the-from-lights the-greater (d.o.->)-the-from-light the-greater to-rule-over the-day and-(d.o.->)-the-from-light the-lesser to-rule-over the-night and-(d.o.->) the-round-objects:
17 And-set them God in-the-expanse of-the-skies to-give-light upon-the-earth:
18 And-to-rule in-the-day and-in-the-night and-to-divide between the-light and-between the darkness and-saw God that-it-was good:
19 And-there-was - evening and-there-was - morning day four: <EOP>

On the first day of creation, He created the light. And, then He divided the light from the darkness, creating the "day" and the "night."

Now, most people think that light must come from a light source, but there was no source of this light on day one.

On the fourth day of creation, He created focal points for the light which was called "from-light"s. The two words "light" and "from-light" are different genders, "light" being masculine and "from-light" being feminine. In Hebrew, masculine words are the simple, physical objects; feminine words are typically more abstract concepts than physical objects.

The focal points include the "greater from-light" to rule the day sky, and the "lesser from-light" to rule the night sky.

Almost as an afterthought, the words "And God made ... and the round objects" were added at the end of verse 16. I believe this is talking about the actual "sources" (assumed) of the light that God originally created on day one. The word "hakowkhaaViym" is a masculine, plural word. Notice, however, that the "light" came BEFORE the "round objects," not the other way around. God created the "light" already en route to the surface of the earth as an electromagnetic wave of a string of photons.

An interesting fact is that no matter how improved the telescopes become, they just continue to see more and more galaxies that they didn't see before! It reminds me of looking at a mathematical fractal, like the Mandelbrot Set! No matter how much one zooms in on the fractal pattern, one just sees more and more complexity! Wouldn't it be wonderful to find out that God just created a GIANT FRACTAL that is assumed to be individual stars and galaxies?! The truth is that we're ALREADY seeing beyond what should be there if the universe is only so 13.8 billion years old!

The first three days of creation were the creations of the environments that were populated in the last three days of creation!

Day One - the creation of light
   Day Two - the creation of the sky and the waters below and above the sky
      Day Three - the creation of the earth and the plants

Day Four - the creation of "from-lights"
   Day Five - the creation of the sea creatures and the birds
      Day Six - the land animals and human beings

This should be an OBVIOUS pattern, but many won't even acknowledge the pattern!

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Leaping forward to Revelation: KJV;Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Per W. A. Criswell The translation"hell" is misleading. "Hell" is the proper translation of gehenna (Grk), as in Matthew 10:28; in which the reference is to the place of eternal confinement for lost men. The word in this text is "hades" which in most cases refers simply to the realm of the dead. ( cf Matthew 11:23 note). ...which is used  in the LXX to translate sheol ( Hebrew).

Fun stuff eh?

Shabbat shalom, Neighbor.

"Hell" is a misnomer from the Norse goddess of death, Hel.

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"Gehenna" or rather, γέεννα = ge-enna (using the single "e" for the epsilon), is the Greek word transliterating the Hebrew PHRASE גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם = "Geey ben-Hinnom," meaning "Valley (of-[the]-son)-of-Hinnom," a LITERAL, REAL valley just outside of Jerusalem on the southeast corner of the Old City. It stretches from the city dump on the south side to the Golden Gate (currently walled up) leading to the Temple grounds on the east side. It was where the kings of Judah set up their judgment seats to make judgment and pass sentence on criminals. The kings would set up their judgment seats facing the Temple, and judge the criminals. If found guilty, the criminal would be taken to the king's left to the city dump and killed there near the Dung Gate. If found innocent, the acquitted would be taken to the king's right and through the Golden Gate to do what was required by the Law in the Temple to be declared free.

Thus, it was a place of JUDGMENT (and will be again, when the Messiah is reigning in Jerusalem).

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The Greek word ᾅδης, or hadees (often written "Hades"), actually is said to be "From ἄλφα (G1, α) (as a negative particle) and εἴδω (G1492)," meaning, "I see." 

It is wrong to think that either Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") or any of His disciples would have been referring to the Greek god "Hades" or the alleged "realm of the dead" over which "Hades" was said to preside! Can you imagine?! Not even a believer who translated into the Greek would make such a translation!

No, the word means "not-seen" or the "unseen," and the word was used as we would use the word, the "unknown" today, typically referring to the Future.

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The Hebrew word שְׁאוֹל or "sh'owl" (often written "Sheol") means "asked-about!" It's that place where children would "ask" their parents about a deceased loved one, such as a grandparent, about that person's life. It's the graveyard or tomb or mortuary where the loved one is buried.

So, when we read a verse like,

Psalm 16:10 (KJV)

10 "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

The Hebrew of that verse is ...

כִּי לֹא־תַעֲזֹב נַפְשִׁי לִשְׁאוֹל לֹא־תִתֵּן חֲסִידְךָ לִרְאוֹת שָׁחַת׃

Transliterated, this is ...

10 Kiy lo'-ta`azoV nafshiy lish'owl lo'-titteen chaciydkhaa lir'owt shaachat:

Translated word-for-word into English, we get ...

10 "For not-wilt-thou-leave my-breathing-creature to-the-grave not-wilt-thou-allow thine-faithful-one-to-thy-covenant to-see decay."