Spiritual or Physical Death

[hmbld]

37 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

I think we`ve both said our piece. And I believe we should take note of what the Holy Spirit said through our dear humble bro, hmbld -

Proverbs 3:18. Wisdom is a tree of life to those who embrace her; happy are those who hold her tightly.

what is wisdom but Christ.

The Lord Himself said - `The Queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.` (Matt. 12: 42)

King Solomon was the wisest man on earth yet here the Lord says that He is greater. Thus we know that He has all wisdom, and wisdom is likened to a `tree of life.`

Even as believers He is our wisdom.

`But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God - ....` (1 Cor. 1 : 30)

....it is written, "He who glories, let Him glory in the Lord.` (v. 31)

Marilyn.

I don't know if my understanding is correct but this is the first I've heard agreement on this. I know majority does not determine truth but I still wonder if anyone else would care to comment. 

[Guest shiloh357]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

There is none greater Shiloh, and that you know well.

Marilyn.

That doesn't even relate to my point.   Proverbs IS using the phrase "tree of life"  metaphorically to refer to wisdom as a source of blessing and refreshing.  It is not equating wisdom with the tree of life in the Garden of Eden.  I understand that you are tempted to draw a connection between Prov.. 3:18 and Genesis 3, but there is no connection.

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That doesn't even relate to my point.   Proverbs IS using the phrase "tree of life"  metaphorically to refer to wisdom as a source of blessing and refreshing.  It is not equating wisdom with the tree of life in the Garden of Eden.  I understand that you are tempted to draw a connection between Prov.. 3:18 and Genesis 3, but there is no connection.

Hi Shiloh,

So may I explain it for you.  Yes in Proverbs Solomon refers to wisdom as ` a tree of life.` However…we know that the Lord is the source of all wisdom, thus He is `THE tree of life.`

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

22 hours ago, hmbld said:

I don't know if my understanding is correct but this is the first I've heard agreement on this. I know majority does not determine truth but I still wonder if anyone else would care to comment. 

Hi Hmbld,

You asked for any others to comment, and I thought we could all learn from this great teacher - Dr. Charles J. Rolls. This is what is written on the back of one of his books - His Glorious Name. (Names and Titles of Jesus Christ T - Z)

`D. Charles J. Rolls is renowned on several continents for his encyclopedic knowledge of Scripture and his radiant devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Educated at the University of Cambridge, Dr. Rolls has been a missionary in India, and home director for the Sudan Interior Mission for New Zealand and Australia. He was founder or dean of Bible schools in New Zealand , Australia, and the United States, later relinquishing this ministry to concentrate on writing and preaching largely in the United States and Canada, where he now makes his home.`  (Note, he has since gone to be with the Lord.)

These are some passages from the section on `The Tree of Life.`

`The book of Genesis contains the foundations in point of fact or figure for all that follows in the revelation of truth. One of its many features consists of twelve conspicuous contrasts: two spheres - heaven and earth; two symbols - light and darkness; two signs - sun and moon.

Two standards expressed in two trees. Two sentences - thorns, sweat and death for man; sorrow, travail, and subjection for woman. Two seeds - Cain and Abel; two securities - the covenants as related to the heritage and the heirs; two sympathies, set forth in two mothers, Hagar and Sarah, which represent bondage and freedom.

Two societies - earthly Babel; and heavenly Jerusalem; and two sequels - Jacob and Esau, setting forth the spiritual and carnal, dealt with in Galatians, a message in which the words `flesh` and `spirit`  are each referred to sixteen times.

 

The undesirable aspects of these twelve finally depart, therefore the problem of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil is solved and the tree of life remains, which yields twelve fruits every month. (Rev. 22: 2).

This is a perfect figure of Christ as the maintainer of the eternal social order, which is presented as a garden city of bridal character (Rev. 21: 2). The Bible opens with a marriage that took place before sin came in, and it closes with a marriage that takes place after sin goes out forever.

The perfections of eternal life in Christ are expressed in the tree of life in a twelvefold manner, assuring maintenance of the redeemed of the Lord from His immortal resources………

A tree, as illustrating a personality, is used elsewhere in Scripture. The Prophet Daniel, when interpreting the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar, said to him, “The tree that thou sawest….it is thou, oh king.`  (Dan. 4: 20 - 22)

In the golden age of Egypt`s grandeur, Ezekiel the prophet, when describing Pharaoh, said, “ Nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty” (Ez. 31: 8 - 9)

These celebrities have perished, but the Person who is designated the Tree of Life in the midst of the paradise of God, abides forever and the riches of His resource never fail.`

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

So may I explain it for you.  Yes in Proverbs Solomon refers to wisdom as ` a tree of life.` However…we know that the Lord is the source of all wisdom, thus He is `THE tree of life.`

Marilyn.

I understand that.  I am simply pointing out that the Proverbs passage isn't referencing Genesis 3.    The Tree of Life in Genesis 3 isn't God.

[Marilyn C]

11 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I understand that.  I am simply pointing out that the Proverbs passage isn't referencing Genesis 3.    The Tree of Life in Genesis 3 isn't God.

Hi Shiloh,

Dr. C.J. Rolls the great Bible teacher  says that the `tree of Life,` figuratively refers to the Lord -

`...the Person who is designated the Tree of Life in the midst of the paradise of God, abides forever and the riches of His resource never fail.`

I believe that truth also.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

Dr. C.J. Rolls the great Bible teacher  says that the `tree of Life,` figuratively refers to the Lord -

`...the Person who is designated the Tree of Life in the midst of the paradise of God, abides forever and the riches of His resource never fail.`

I believe that truth also.

regards, Marilyn.

 

The Bible does not say that the Tree of Life in Genesis is figurative of anything.   It does not say that anywhere in the text of Scripture.  

You can trust in man's word, if you want.  I will trust in the pure Word of God and  I will believe what it says over what man says.

[JohnD]

On 9/5/2017 at 8:11 AM, Running Gator said:

In a different thread I made this comment..

Unless the death talked about in regards to the fall was spiritual death and not physical death

To which I was asked this...

Can you show scripture that even hints at that?

In an effort to keep that thread on topic, I have started this thread to post my answer. 

Here was my reply...

In Gen 2 and 3 there are a couple passes that hint at that. 

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They did not die physically in the day that they ate from the tree.

Gen 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.   

along with Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If there was no death engineered into creation as some suggest, why was there a tree in the garden that would allow whomever ate its fruit to live forever? 

Uh, I don't know if this was answered or not, but this is physical death being referred to. The "day" you eat of it you shall "surely die" is subjective on both quoted points.

1. Day can mean era in scripture. It can also refer to a day to God rather than a day to man and the scripture teaches that as day is as a thousand years to God (A&E lived only 927-ish years).

2. Surely die is in the Hebrew (if memory serves) "dying you shall die" which may simply mean the process of dying began on the 24 hour day they ate the forbidden fruit.

The ONLY scripture references I am currently aware of to "spiritual death" are Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8

"This IS the second death."

P.S. There is also the argument that this is also a physical death after resurrection and the disembodied spirits of the damned continue in hell in eternal suffering which (according to the argument) is still not a death of the spirit. They claim there is no scriptural evidence for the death of the spirit of any kind.

IF

Note to obstructionists: I said IF

This is true, what distinguishes the infinity of spirits from eternality of God is God has no beginning and no end. Infinite spirits have a beginning and no end.

And of course there are the gazillion attributes of deity in God as opposed to none in his created beings (spirits).

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 3:53 PM, shiloh357 said:

The Bible does not say that the Tree of Life in Genesis is figurative of anything.   It does not say that anywhere in the text of Scripture.  

You can trust in man's word, if you want.  I will trust in the pure Word of God and  I will believe what it says over what man says.

Hi shiloh,

You are correct that it does not say anywhere in scripture that the `tree of life,` is figurative of anything. I so agree...however.....We know from God`s word that NO scripture is to be taken on its own, it needs to be taken with ALL of God`s word, especially on that topic.

So...`the tree of life.` What does God say concerning life, -

`In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

In Him was LIFE, and the life was the light of men.` (John 1: 1 - 5)

`For with You is the FOUNTAIN OF LIFE; ....` (Ps. 36: 9)

`Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the LIFE.” (John 14: 6)

` He that believes in the Son has everlasting LIFE...` (John 3: 36)

So shiloh, we see from God`s word that `LIFE ` is in God`s Son. Thus we can see that `the tree of LIFE,` is figurative of God`s Son and there is NOT a tree of life that if you eat you will live forever. It is ONLY through receiving Christ that one can have LIFE.

Note there are NO scriptures to back up your belief for No scripture can be taken on its own.

Marilyn.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi shiloh,

You are correct that it does not say anywhere in scripture that the `tree of life,` is figurative of anything. I so agree...however.....We know from God`s word that NO scripture is to be taken on its own, it needs to be taken with ALL of God`s word, especially on that topic.

Right, but that is not what you're doing, here.   What you're doing is assuming the Tree of Life is figurative, and then you go hunting for Scripture to back up that assumption.  That is a very sloppy approach to God's word.

The problem with your exegesis, is that the Bible itself doesn't draw any connection between the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden and Jesus.  You are manufacturing a connection that simply doesn't exist. 

It's a false connection because the life that Jesus offers is eternal life.   The life that came from the tree of life was not eternal life.   Eternal life is a person, namely it is God Himself.  It is the very life of God and only God can offer that life.  

The tree of life did not give anyone the life of God.   The life offered by the tree of life would have doomed Adam in his fallen state, to live forever under the curse of sin.   So, what the tree of life offered was the ability to live forever, but not eternal life.   The tree of life in Genesis 3 was a real tree, not a figurative tree, like it or not.  The Bible doesn't treat it as anything other than a real tree.

I am just going to continue to trust in the Scriptures, as God means exactly what He says.