Diaste Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,627 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2017 15 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said: But there is a major difference between the Lord's wrath of the coming tribulation period and the trials and tribulations of this present life All believers of both the OT and NT will be made immortal just before His judgment falls in Revelation 6:12-17 .... the coming tribulation period Some will be saved of Israel and of the Gentiles during this period, but not many The Lord will continue to save those who will turn to Him during the period The idea of "the Lord's wrath of the coming tribulation period " is worse than wrong. If the entire time frame is the wrath of God then God has lied. Pretrib admits a great many believers will come from the 'tribulation period', both alive and dead. That means that a great many believers would endure the wrath of God and even be killed by the wrath of God. "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Since this is not possible, because God is not a liar, then the lie must be "the Lord's wrath of the coming tribulation period ". This is just another example of the failings of Pretrib and the elitist view of, "We don't endure the tribulation period because it's the wrath of God, but others will because they aren't in our group." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfailing Presence Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Diaste said: Well that's just great. You can't fathom the scenario. None of us can. It's unprecedented. That does not make it less true or more false. Truth or false is evidence based and I don't see any evidence, just a mind incapable of comprehending the totality of a time only spoken but never experienced. Good. You're just like the rest of us. " unprecedented " is right . I thank you for confirming what I already know , that in the entire scripture there is not one example of God Abandoning and forsaking an entire population of His children in the midst of their enmasse faithfulness and obedience to Him . Unless of course you take into account the entire persecuted population of Hebrews being drowned in the Red Sea by their persecutors after God abandoned them and forsook them at the waters edge . Quite unpredictable in scripture is this God's posture towards entire populations being faithful and obedient to Him , no matter what " hath God said " is he not ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfailing Presence Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Justin Adams said: Interesting question that. As I start to type I am unsure what I will say. If there is a wholesale slaughter of Christians, then I am quite sure that the Lord, who promised to never leave us or forsake us, will be quite able to still be with us and minister in some way. Since many have been killed like Stephen was, I am unsure how Yahweh will effect this. Perhaps there will be some kind of refuge, or maybe we just die ignobly as so many have already. I am sure that those that died did so sometimes in a real terror that we can not yet imagine. It is this need to escape the thought of pain that birthed the pre-trib movement, and as such is quite understandable. But wrong. I do not wish to scare fellow Christians unduly, but we should face up to the facts of our mortality and weakness in the face of extermination and death. Your question about Holy Spirit is relevant only if we understand that He blows where He wills and is not going to obscure or obstruct any of Yahweh's purposes. Yeshua in Matthew 24 does give us a very good heads up about all this (ignore 'remnant' doctrine). Jude 24-25 King James Version 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. So does this mean your understanding is that the Holy Spirit will never depart from the earth ? I would remind you that there was also a moment in time that the Spirit of God departed the Temple , ( due to sin , not faithfulness by the way ) NEVER to return . Yet there the Temple still stood , and the earth still spun . Anything here to be discerned about the Holy Spirit departing the earth ? Or just more confusion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) In the beginning - The Holy Spirit Brooded over the face of the earth. Although He may depart some people for transgressions, as long as there is one Christian Believer on our earth, the Holy Spirit will never leave. [I am thinking this is a false doctrine; that He leaves]. God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent. "The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth" (John 14:16-17, NIV). Every person who belongs to God has the Holy Spirit within them (Romans 8:9). The Holy Spirit is not drawing away from the world. The world is drawing away from Him. Despite all of this, the Lord is continuously drawing His loving creation toward Him so we may be sealed with the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:3). The seal of the Holy Spirit is God's solemn promise of our eternal inheritance, until the day of redemption (Ephesians1:13-14). So, the Holy Spirit is always here with us in the earth, even unto the end of the world (Matt.28:20)! Jesus said the Holy Spirit comes to convict the world of Sin and He leads us and guides us into all truth. If He goes, where would that leave Christians who have the Holy Spirit? Would he just take off and leave them high and dry? What many churches believe... - they are cults or teaching false doctrine. Edited December 3, 2017 by Justin Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfailing Presence Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 15 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: In the beginning - The Holy Spirit Brooded over the face of the earth. Although He may depart some people for transgressions, as long as there is one Christian Believer on our earth, the Holy Spirit will never leave. [I am thinking this is a false doctrine; that He leaves]. God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent. "The Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth" (John 14:16-17, NIV). Every person who belongs to God has the Holy Spirit within them (Romans 8:9). The Holy Spirit is not drawing away from the world. The world is drawing away from Him. Despite all of this, the Lord is continuously drawing His loving creation toward Him so we may be sealed with the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:3). The seal of the Holy Spirit is God's solemn promise of our eternal inheritance, until the day of redemption (Ephesians1:13-14). So, the Holy Spirit is always here with us in the earth, even unto the end of the world (Matt.28:20)! Jesus said the Holy Spirit comes to convict the world of Sin and He leads us and guides us into all truth. If He goes, where would that leave Christians who have the Holy Spirit? Would he just take off and leave them high and dry? What many churches believe... - they are cults or teaching false doctrine. Let me be clear , you believe the on earth co-existence of Satan incarnate's world wide rule and the Holy Spirit's presence ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2017 "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Since this is not possible, because God is not a liar, then the lie must be "the Lord's wrath of the coming tribulation period ". This is just another example of the failings of Pretrib and the elitist view of, "We don't endure the tribulation period because it's the wrath of God, but others will because they aren't in our group." Learn that the Lord's coming judgment will be a very different setting than any other time set out for humanity You also need to understand that it is those who come "away" from the period of His wrath will be immortalized just before [Revelation 7:9-17] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,627 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said: "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Since this is not possible, because God is not a liar, then the lie must be "the Lord's wrath of the coming tribulation period ". This is just another example of the failings of Pretrib and the elitist view of, "We don't endure the tribulation period because it's the wrath of God, but others will because they aren't in our group." Learn that the Lord's coming judgment will be a very different setting than any other time set out for humanity You also need to understand that it is those who come "away" from the period of His wrath will be immortalized just before [Revelation 7:9-17] I'm not totally sure what point you're making but if we are talking about judgment and who is in line for judgment, and who 'gets it' first, we can listen to Peter. 1 Peter 4 "17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" Just so you don't think it's the Jews and not christians that are in line for this "House of God Judgment" lets listen some more, this time to Paul. Galatians 3 "28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." So you are actually correct about who God is dealing with and who Jesus came to, the seed of Abraham. That's you and I. And only those who are Christ's. Since we are also of the House of God, and the 'us' that Peter refers to, "and if it first begin at us", then judgment is our destiny. Do you hear? If we are not in line for judgment first, before the end of the ungodly, we are not of the house of God. What we can do is to ask for mercy and be very afraid of the power and might of Almighty God and the refining fire to be unleashed on the earth. Throw ourselves at His feet and place all our and heart and mind and body in His care. His power is to save the righteous and show mercy to the humble. Call on Him. Today. Now. The beast is coming for the church, you and I. We need the Strength of our Savior to make it. Today. Now. The beast is nearly here. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) Your idea of today's "church" going through the 70th week decreed for Israel [the coming tribulation of the Lord's wrath] is not correct What men have experienced and do experience in this present life is far different than what will be met out upon the earth during the coming tribulation period Keep studying your Bible and learn that just before these things come, all of the Lord's own from the beginning of time will be caught up and made immortal .... both the dead and the living together Then the Lord will bring His unrelenting tribulation upon the earth for 7 years and 30 days Those who become believers during the period of both Israel and of the Gentiles will be saved although not many Some will be killed and resurrected at the end of the period and the balance of those saved will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals Edited December 3, 2017 by Daniel 11:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.81 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Diaste said: There is no 7 year tribulation, it's a period of less than 3.5 years duration. The A of D occurs at the midpoint. Daniel said the 'overspreading of abominations will cause desolation', occurring in the 'midst' of the week. Jesus referenced this in Matt 24. Told us to look for it. Told us to run. Then Jesus said, " For then shall be great tribulation". Only after the A of D, fleeing immediately from the very spot a person stands, sadness for nursing mothers and a winter escape, does 'great tribulation' begin. "For then shall be great tribulation..." At best everyone will enter the week, staying to the midpoint. And of course you are saying two different things here. 'Tribulation' and the wrath of God are not the same thing. Jesus did not say of this time there would be tribulation. He said GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not nor ever shall be. Jesus also makes a distinction between the two in Matt 24. The wrath of God only begins after the world sees Jesus come in the clouds. Even though Jesus does not say, "wrath of God" He describes it referring to Noah and the flood. Great tribulation is judgment on the house of God. Peter says judgment begins at the house of God, and if it begins with us, what happens to the ungodly. 2 Peter. Wrath is judgement on the ungodly. Not sure how you can miss the order. I deny your theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted December 3, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) "There is no 7 year tribulation" Oh yes there will be [Daniel 9:24] The 70th week decreed for Israel still pending Edited December 3, 2017 by Daniel 11:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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