Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, I'm sorry but I'm not certain what your trying to say, unless you are saying that Joel 3:14-16 is Matthew 24:29-30. I will answer as if that is the case.

 

Hi Steve,

Have started this again.

How do you see Joel 3: 14 - 16 different from Matt. 24: 29 - 30?

Marilyn.

[patrick jane]

Isaiah 24 - KJV - 

Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

² And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.

³ The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lordhath spoken this word.

⁴ The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

⁵ The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

⁶ Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

⁷ The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.

⁸ The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.

⁹ They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.

¹⁰ The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

¹¹ There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.

¹² In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.

¹³ When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.

¹⁴ They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the Lord, they shall cry aloud from the sea.

¹⁵ Wherefore glorify ye the Lord in the fires, even the name of the LordGod of Israel in the isles of the sea.

¹⁶ From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.

¹⁷ Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

¹⁸ And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

¹⁹ The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

²⁰ The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

²¹ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

²² And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

²³ Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Edited March 24, 2018 by patrick jane

[Steve Conley]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

All scripture is for us to read BUT it is NOT all about us. The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul revealed the revelation of the Body of Christ. It was NOT revealed BEFORE then. (Eph. 3: 4 - 6)

Also the 12 disciples ONLY knew of the coming rulership of the Lord through Israel. That is what they always looked for and what the Lord taught them. They never knew of God`s purpose to make the Body of Christ. That is why they had such difficulty with Paul and what he was teaching.

You are mixing up God`s purposes for the two groups. They are all through Christ but have different inheritances.

regards, Marilyn.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, it appears that you have swallowed the pre-trib/dispensational system hook, line, and sinker. A system I used to teach. Thank God for His mercy that He is now allowing me to correct some of the damage that was caused by my teaching. I'm so sorry that someone has convinced you that our Saviour's most pertinent discourse on His coming and the unparalleled persecution that precedes it does not have anything to do with the church. I know you think that you are just rightly dividing. However, rightly dividing is not relegating Biblical truths that don't fit into your system of understanding to other people groups. That is what Peter called wresting the Scriptures. That is actually torturing the Scriptures out of their context.  

1) There is only one second parousia. Paul uses parousia for our gathering to the Lord at His coming (1Thes 4:15) and Jesus uses uses parousia for His description of His unmistakable coming in glory which every one will see (Matt 24:27). These both refer to the same thing. Pretrib teachers teach that these arrivals are at different times therefore they teach a second and a third coming, which the Holy Scriptures say nothing about.

2) The saints of history who wrote concerning these things all expected the church to see the antichrist and experience great tribulation. The teaching of the 12 known as the Didache is the earliest of the available teachings of the church. It is very clear that the early saints believed that they would face great tribulation before seeing the Lord.

3) Jesus told the Apostles to make disciples and teach them to observe all that He taught. He didn't say teach all things with the exception of the Olivet Discourse because it was for the "tribulation" Jews.

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

4) Paul said that His teaching on the second coming was from the Lord. He taught the exact same thing.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

5) There are dozens of parallels between the teaching of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians.

Don't be lulled to sleep by a great escape that will never come. Wake up, open your eyes.

Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Hallelujah

[Steve Conley]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

Have started this again.

How do you see Joel 3: 14 - 16 different from Matt. 24: 29 - 30?

Marilyn.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, I explained the whole thing in the post you just quoted. It requires that you read it. You will find there a whole chain of evidence, one explicit statement of the Scriptures after another.

Hallelujah

[Marilyn C]

4 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, I explained the whole thing in the post you just quoted. It requires that you read it. You will find there a whole chain of evidence, one explicit statement of the Scriptures after another.

Hallelujah

Hi Steve,

Yes I read your notes however I don`t think you have looked close enough at the two scriptures. You seem to think they are different times.

You said -

13) Therefore, if Joel 3:14-16 is Armageddon it cannot be the coming Jesus that is described in Matthew 24:30 because there are many detailed judgements which take place between the two events.

Joel 3: 15 & 16

`The sun and moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the Lord will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.`

 

Matthew 24: 29 – 31.

  `Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.`

 

The two scriptures are describing the same event just before the Lord comes.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

31 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

Hi Steve,

Yes the Lord taught the 12 disciples much concerning Israel`s future, BUT never revealed the Body of Christ purpose. We are blessed to have revealed to us the full purposes of God. The 12 disciples were given part of that. To the Apostle Paul was given the full eternal purposes of God in Christ Jesus. You take away the Holy Spirit`s writings through Paul and we will be left with no understanding of the Body of Christ. All we will have is God`s purposes through Israel with some added Gentiles, which have always been able to join in with Israel.

` Lord wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to ISRAEL.` (Acts 1: 6)

Here the eleven disciples are asking the Lord before He ascended if He was going to bring in Israel`s rulership. No understanding of the Body of Christ yet to be revealed. 

`But when Peter was to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.`(Gal. 2: 11)

Peter was thinking that the Gentiles had to come under Jewish rites to enter into Israel, - `to live as the Jews. `(v. 14)

Peter thought the Gentiles (as they had in OT times) would come into Israel`s purpose.

Big differences there bro. Marilyn.

[Daniel 11:36]

A big difference .... no doubt

[Christine]

* I would just like to say how much I have appreciated the interchange between @Marilyn C and @Steve Conley, and the spirit in which it has been carried out.

Thank you both.

In Chris Jesus
Chris

[Steve Conley]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

Yes I read your notes however I don`t think you have looked close enough at the two scriptures. You seem to think they are different times.

You said -

13) Therefore, if Joel 3:14-16 is Armageddon it cannot be the coming Jesus that is described in Matthew 24:30 because there are many detailed judgements which take place between the two events.

Joel 3: 15 & 16

`The sun and moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the Lord will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.`

 

Matthew 24: 29 – 31.

  `Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.`

 

The two scriptures are describing the same event just before the Lord comes.

Marilyn.

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C,

If the trumpet judgements, vial judgements, and destruction at Armageddon, in that order, is the wrath of God

and

If the wrath of God comes in the beginning of the day of the Lord

and

If the day of the Lord comes after the cosmic sign mentioned in Joel 2:31

and

If the saints of God are removed from the earth before God's wrath is poured out upon the earthdwellers

and

If Joel 3:14-16 is Christ dealing with the Beast and the armies that follow him at Armageddon. (?)

Then

Joel 3:14-16 cannot be that which Jesus described concerning His arrival in Matthew 24:29-31 because the activity described by Jesus takes place before the wrath begins to be poured out and according to your description of Joel 3:14-16 it takes place at Armageddon which comes at the end of the period of His wrath.

The inevitable conclusion is that either Joel 3:14-16 refers to Christ's activity further into His parousia, that is, not at the beginning of the day of the Lord or that Joel 3:14-16 has been misinterpreted and that it is not referring to Armageddon. Either way you have a problem.

Hallelujah

Edited March 24, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Daniel 11:36]

Joel 3:14 refers to the battle of Armageddon .... no doubt

This will be at the end of the coming tribulation period during the 30 day period accrued