Looking for some opinions

[inchrist]

7 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

     He went into heaven. What God wanted to show him is what he saw. 

Yes and what He saw was a vision 

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 

And that vision was the new heavens and new earth, because that is what paradise is continually associated with throughout scripture. Consistency is Key.

and by the way as for the thief

To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Christ didnt go to "paradise" that very day did he? 

 

[inchrist]

6 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

 Some in Jesus day did not believe him. 

No...look you cant start with that because you now trying to place me in he box of the pharisees, you gotta stop this, you and I both believe in what Jesus stated. It is the ability to listen to what Christ stated is what we at loggerheads about.

So in contrast, It is you I dont believe, It is your interpretation I dont believe. 

Quote

 Jesus is the one who said he open in his eyes in Hades.  

John 5:28 & 29 Do not be amazed at this ( Little ironic), for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29 and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life ( lazarus), and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment (richman).

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And said the rich man wanted Lazarus sent from the dead.

NO he didnt say he wanted Lazarus to go from the dead

No, father Abraham, he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 

Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.

How about that, there was a Lazarus who was raised and he made no mention of his soul floating about???

Nevertheless Abraham is stating a factual truth in the parable, Christ resurrection. If they werent going to listen to moses and prophets about Christ, how then would the listen if Christ was resurrected.

and as history shows, the pharisees didnt did they? 

 

[wingnut-]

11 minutes ago, inchrist said:

in otherwords wingnuts interpretation

God will bring with him souls of those who have fallen asleep.

Thats not what Scripture teaches at all.

 

I don't interpret scripture, I merely read it and accept what it says.

To put this into a modern application, if I invite a friend to a BBQ, and he says I am bringing the kids with me, that means they are coming from the same place.  Otherwise he would say something along the lines of, I'm going to pick up the kids on my way or something like that.  But Paul doesn't say God will gather those asleep, he says God will bring with Him.

 

God bless

[inchrist]

2 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

I don't interpret scripture, I merely read it and accept what it says.

To put this into a modern application, if I invite a friend to a BBQ, and he says I am bringing the kids with me, that means they are coming from the same place.  Otherwise he would say something along the lines of, I'm going to pick up the kids on my way or something like that.  But Paul doesn't say God will gather those asleep, he says God will bring with Him.

 

God bless

I get where you coming from but  you are still interpreting  your thought into it, yout example  even proves this.

However  this is not my thought 

Ecclesiastes 12:7

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Then it's God who will bring with him the spirits of those who have fallen asleep.

[wingnut-]

1 minute ago, inchrist said:

I get where you coming from but  you are still interpreting  your thought into it, yout example  even proves this.

However  this is not my thought 

Ecclesiastes 12:7

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Then it's God who will bring with him the spirits of those who have fallen asleep.

 

I'm really not, I've been to funerals many times.  I understand that the body goes into the ground, and I understand that those bodies are in some way raised up on the last day to form the immortal body.  Our Spirit, being sealed by the Holy Spirit, will return to heaven upon death and there we will await.  In Revelation, John uses the word soul, but to me it is really just semantics, the bottom line is we are with Him once we die.  Which is why Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise.

From what you said above, I don't think we see this differently, we are simply defining it differently.

[inchrist]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

I'm really not, I've been to funerals many times.  I understand that the body goes into the ground, and I understand that those bodies are in some way raised up on the last day to form the immortal body.  Our Spirit, being sealed by the Holy Spirit, will return to heaven upon death and there we will await.  In Revelation, John uses the word soul, but to me it is really just semantics, the bottom line is we are with Him once we die.  Which is why Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise.

From what you said above, I don't think we see this differently, we are simply defining it differently.

I wish I could say yes but no.

You treat soul as an individual component within man; instead of soul as a outer component of man being the whole of man, in other words its freshly.

Spirit is an inner component which returns to God but it is not immortal. It does not exist as an individual separate component to be immortal of the body.

Immortality is only given body + spirit = soul at the resurrection. None of these components exist individually as immortal after death.

The thing is we are only with Christ when we are resurrected 

"So shall we be with the Lord" and that phrase is only found at Christ  return.

If we are with the Lord already when we die; then the resurrection is pointless. Youre alive why do you need the resurrection then? 

Further we are only given this gift of immortality, our reward at Christ's return.

Therefore you can not have immortality your gift upon your death, because no where in scripture will you find that.

 

 

 

 

[inchrist]

9 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

 Did not Moses and Elijah appear on the holy mount with Christ. But Moses died long ago.

No Christ stated it was a vision

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead. (Matthew 17:9) 

To believe it other than a vision; then many scriptures would become false using this word vision

Like Paul had a vision of the new heaven and new earth. 

[wingnut-]

26 minutes ago, inchrist said:

You treat soul as an individual component within man; instead of soul as a outer component of man being the whole of man, in other words its freshly.

 

Actually, you can't say how I treat the soul, because you have no idea how I see it lol.   That is merely an assumption on your part, but this is my honest reply to it.

I understand what the body is, and I understand what the Holy Spirit is.  The soul to me, in my current state, I cannot accurately define or really grasp to treat it in any manner.  I do know this though from scripture, there is only ONE spirit, and it is immortal.  So understanding that being born again makes me part of that ONE spirit, and taking the rest of scripture in conjunction with that, I know I will be with Him when I shed this mortal body.

God bless

[inchrist]

13 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

I understand what the body is, and I understand what the Holy Spirit is.  The soul to me, in my current state, I cannot accurately define or really grasp to treat it in any manner. 

 

And that's cool, likewise spirit itself is difficult to define....this is not an easy subject.

 

I do know this though from scripture, there is only ONE spirit, and it is immortal.  So understanding that being born again makes me part of that ONE spirit, and taking the rest of scripture in conjunction with that, I know I will be with Him when I shed this mortal body.

I halfway agree with you, just not the bit you will be with Christ  as soon as you shed your mortal body.  

Immortality throughout scripture is only given at the resurrection for the righteous not before. There is no concept nor phrase of immortal soul in scripture.

Try this exercise.....every verse you think speaks of immortal soul; think resurrection.

Because that is the fundamental core of what we believe through Christ . The only answer for immortality- resurrection. 

This is why we preach the good news..... Christ has risen.

[Jaynee]

44 minutes ago, inchrist said:

And that's cool, likewise spirit itself is difficult to define....this is not an easy subject.

 

 

I halfway agree with you, just not the bit you will be with Christ  as soon as you shed your mortal body.  

Immortality throughout scripture is only given at the resurrection for the righteous not before. There is no concept nor phrase of immortal soul in scripture.

Try this exercise.....every verse you think speaks of immortal soul; think resurrection.

Because that is the fundamental core of what we believe through Christ . The only answer for immortality- resurrection. 

This is why we preach the good news..... Christ has risen.

So then, where do you propose we will be when we die @inchrist? Whilst we are waiting to be in the presence of God? 

Sorry if you have answered this already - finding it hard to keep up with all the different comments!