Looking for some opinions

[TheMatrixHasU71]

11 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

If that is indeed the case, then why do the scriptures talk about 'sleep'. However, the Mesopotamian concepts of Sheol may not be the same as our concept of the place where the saved sleep. It may even be under or in the altar of the most High. Wherever and however it is in 'reality' or in terms of 'time' it is a safe place.

The body sleeps brother, not the soul. The souls under the alter of God do not sleep 

Revelation 6

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 

Dont look too asleep to me 

[Jaynee]

2 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

No no, at the same time friend. The old heaven and the old earth shall be destroyed and there shall be a new heaven and the new earth created, a perfect incorrupt heaven and earth.  And what you have heard sounds a lot like what Jehovah's witnesses believe. Stay away from them sister. 

Thank you for the reply. 

I do not agree with what the Jehovah Witnesses teach or believe. I think I'm just a bit confused to the term "new heaven and new earth".. Where does that mean saved Christian's will be in the end? In the new heaven, or the new earth ? I'm assuming this won't be the same place ? 

I know I'm probably making simple things complicated lol

[TheMatrixHasU71]

19 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

If that is indeed the case, then why do the scriptures talk about 'sleep'. However, the Mesopotamian concepts of Sheol may not be the same as our concept of the place where the saved sleep. It may even be under or in the altar of the most High. Wherever and however it is in 'reality' or in terms of 'time' it is a safe place.

I am also thinking too, I am trying to find the right passage but cannot think of the right keywords, of the graves of the dead being emptied out just before Christ's resurrection. This was the moment Sheol was emptied permanently, that is the Paradise side of it.

Edited January 16, 2018 by TheMatrixHasU71
Argh my typing sux lol

[TheMatrixHasU71]

9 minutes ago, Jaynee said:

Thank you for the reply. 

I do not agree with what the Jehovah Witnesses teach or believe. I think I'm just a bit confused to the term "new heaven and new earth".. Where does that mean saved Christian's will be in the end? In the new heaven, or the new earth ? I'm assuming this won't be the same place ? 

I know I'm probably making simple things complicated lol

The new heaven and the new earth will be one and the same place sis

Rev 21

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

[Justin Adams]

Ok we got several thoughts going at the same time here. The graves opened and some people were seen to rise (not all) at about the time or just after it went dark and the temple veil was torn from the top to the bottom. It is to be noted that this veil was huge and about 4 inches thick.

The second note is that after the great white throne judgement and the heavens and earth are replaced with new ones is way at the end of the millennium and then the city descends 1400 miles square. This is after all evil has been burned up totally.

The dead in Christ will rise first seems to indicate a second coming event. Perhaps the martyrs under the throne are different. I just do not know much about this since there seems to be many concurrent and not necessarily sequential events mentioned in Revelations and Daniel.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Justin Adams

[Heleadethme]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:30 AM, Jaynee said:

Looking for some opinions/ bible info. Is Heaven a place where we will physically be? Or a place we will feel spiritually? 

Also - I'm aware the dead will sleep, until the coming of Jesus. I don't believe we go straight to Heaven. I believe we will all be judged at the same time. Although, the part I'm unsure about is, where will our minds and souls be during this time of "sleep"? And are the saved at peace during this time? 

My Grandmother has recently passed away, she was saved also. I suppose it's just made me wonder about these things a little more and spiritually where will she be at this moment ? If anywhere ? 

Thanks 

Gleaning from some scriptures that come to mind with this.......there might be other passages that yield further information..........Jesus told the thief on the cross that this day he would be with Him in paradise.  Also the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar Lazarus at his gate.....when the beggar died his soul went to be in the bosom of Abraham in a heavenly place apparently, while the rich man was in hell and torment.  This makes me think that "sleep" in reference to death really only applies to our bodies because it is they which will be resurrected again.....while the soul/spirit is eternal.  At the resurrection the souls of believers will be returned to our bodies made incorruptible in the twinkling of an eye, while at the second resurrection the souls of sinners will return to their physical bodies and then cast into the lake of fire, called the second death.  Also where we are told we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses......it seems to give an impression that those who have gone on before us have consciousness if they are witnessing in some sense our race on earth (if that is the right way to understand it).

[Mike 2]

1 hour ago, Jaynee said:

Thank you @TheMatrixHasU71 

That has helped. So, my question now is, when it says there will be a new heaven and a new earth.. this is not meaning at the same time, as in two different places? 

I have heard some people say that the "higher ranked" Christians will be with God in the new Heaven, and the "lower ranked" Christians will tend to and live on the "New Earth"? unsure what my own opinions on that are, but what would you say on that subject? 

 

Gotta agree with TheMatrix on this one. The JW's do push this. The idea being that only a select few (of course made up of Jehovah's Witnesses) will actually be worthy and pure enough to be in heaven with God doesn't make sense and it doesn't take much reading to see that this is misguided  (by the Watchtower) thinking.....hmmmm, who are they" watching"  ?

Something I believe is that even though we, in this world, look at "status" as a way of separating our society in to different hierarchy groups that create invisible barriers between us that no one should cross, I don't think for a second that there would be any barriers like that in heaven. That would ultimately create division and jealousy, or more accurately, envy.

I believe that in heaven, whatever a persons "position" we will see it as right, fully understanding and embracing it with a love and desire to see it all work together as "the body". We won't see others as having a higher ranking but just as someone doing their part no greater or lesser than any other.

Something else to think about is that heaven is not a physical place where God is, think about that ....if heaven is a place where God is, the place would have to have been there before God in order for God to go there. Otherwise where was God before that??  But....God created everything.

Heaven is not where God is....God is where heaven is, or to put it another way,....where God is heaven is .

Luk 17:20  And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 
Luk 17:21  neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.   Also look at Luk 9:27, Luk 10:9, Luk 18:17

The New Jerusalem coming down from heaven in Revelation is a way of showing that God comes to us!!!

Rev 21:3  I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 

Because of our understanding of the physical we understand up and down in physical ways.

Up and down can also be understood as a level of higher or lower authority or status.  Our automatic go to when we read "God coming down" is to think of Him coming down from a physical place because that's how we understand things. We don't often consider he may be coming down from a Holy, Holy, Holy position.....to dwell with us.

Incredible 

[Mike 2]

3 hours ago, Jaynee said:

Thank you for the reply. 

I do not agree with what the Jehovah Witnesses teach or believe. I think I'm just a bit confused to the term "new heaven and new earth".. Where does that mean saved Christian's will be in the end? In the new heaven, or the new earth ? I'm assuming this won't be the same place ? 

I know I'm probably making simple things complicated lol

I don't think you are making a simple thing complicated.

Your questions require a lot of thinking and require comparing bible passages.....makes us all think 

[Jaynee]

2 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

Gotta agree with TheMatrix on this one. The JW's do push this. The idea being that only a select few (of course made up of Jehovah's Witnesses) will actually be worthy and pure enough to be in heaven with God doesn't make sense and it doesn't take much reading to see that this is misguided  (by the Watchtower) thinking.....hmmmm, who are they" watching"  ?

Something I believe is that even though we, in this world, look at "status" as a way of separating our society in to different hierarchy groups that create invisible barriers between us that no one should cross, I don't think for a second that there would be any barriers like that in heaven. That would ultimately create division and jealousy, or more accurately, envy.

I believe that in heaven, whatever a persons "position" we will see it as right, fully understanding and embracing it with a love and desire to see it all work together as "the body". We won't see others as having a higher ranking but just as someone doing their part no greater or lesser than any other.

Something else to think about is that heaven is not a physical place where God is, think about that ....if heaven is a place where God is, the place would have to have been there before God in order for God to go there. Otherwise where was God before that??  But....God created everything.

Heaven is not where God is....God is where heaven is, or to put it another way,....where God is heaven is .

Luk 17:20  And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 
Luk 17:21  neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.   Also look at Luk 9:27, Luk 10:9, Luk 18:17

The New Jerusalem coming down from heaven in Revelation is a way of showing that God comes to us!!!

Rev 21:3  I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 

Because of our understanding of the physical we understand up and down in physical ways.

Up and down can also be understood as a level of higher or lower authority or status.  Our automatic go to when we read "God coming down" is to think of Him coming down from a physical place because that's how we understand things. We don't often consider he may be coming down from a Holy, Holy, Holy position.....to dwell with us.

Incredible 

Yes, I have heard they state about the 144,000 only gaining entry to heaven? .. If this was the case, then Satan would clearly win, with the majority of the world going to hell? Nonsense eh?! 

Great points you have stated. So can I ask, if it states that God is "preparing a place/heaven for us" this would mean Heaven is not being worked on just now? If it is not a physical place as of yet? 

Also, do you believe we are in the presence of Jesus when we die? Or we are simply at peace awaiting that day to come? 

Sorry if I have repeated myself at any time

[Jaynee]

2 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

I don't think you are making a simple thing complicated.

Your questions require a lot of thinking and require comparing bible passages.....makes us all think 

Thanks! Yeah, it seems this topic is keeping everyone on their toes haha :-)