Harmonizing Paul and the Twelve

[Tristen]

On 16/01/2018 at 1:01 PM, stillseeking said:

Let's start with Torah observance. 

If the Law could save us, we wouldn't have needed a Savior. There would be no 'good news'. Jesus often encouraged people for their faith, but criticized those who thought their adherence to Law secured their standing with God. Gentiles were never obligated to the Law - it was always a covenant between God and the nation of Israel.

Also remember that the Gospel author Luke is also the author of Acts - dealing primarily with the ministry of Paul (besides the reference Peter gave Paul in his letters - as others have already mentioned).

[HAZARD]

 In Acts 9 we read about Saul, going toward Damascus, is stricken down to the earth, and led blind to Damascus; He is called to the apostleship;
and is baptized by Ananias. He preaches Christ boldly. The Jews lay wait to kill him; so do the Grecians, but he escapes both.

Acts 9:5, And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

I used to wonder what the Lord meant when He said to Saul; "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

This saying, “It is hard for you to kick against the pricks,” was a familiar saying to the Jews and anyone who made a living in agriculture.

An ox goad was a stick with a pointed piece of iron on its tip used to prod the oxen when plowing. The farmer would prod the animal to steer it in the right direction. Sometimes the animal would rebel by kicking out at the prick, and this would result in the sharp prod being driven even further into its flesh. In essence, the more an ox rebelled, the more it suffered. Thus, Jesus’ words to Saul on the road to Damascus: “It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.”

[FresnoJoe]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:37 PM, stillseeking said:

This does demonstrate that he eventually had a few moments of agreement with the apostles.  Still, why would Jesus have him go all the way to Jerusalem, have a vision, and leave...instead of meeting up with the followers of Jesus there?  Something just doesn't fit.  Furthermore, let's explore why Jews might be objecting to Paul--could it be his insistence that it was ok for new believers not to be Torah-observant? 

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." 

Brother, Being Torah (Instruction) Observant Will Surely Point One To Hell

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Romans 3:29 (New International Version)

But, Being Faith Observant Will Surely Join One To

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. Romans 3:21-31 (New American Standard Bible)

The LORD Jesus

Truly, truly, I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 (New Heart English Bible)

~

The Master Speaks

The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. John 6:63 (Berean Study Bible)

Can You Believe Him

He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. John 3:36 (American King James Version)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.　

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)　

Love, Your Brother Joe　

~

The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. John 6:63 (Berean Study Bible)

~　

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.　

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.　

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.　

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.　

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.　

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

[Orphan]

For who the law is made? " The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ" Paul's character is a Hebrew of Hebrews. Everything that a law abiding Jews and pharasees looked .A murderous type to prove the law was the way. There was not a better choice in the wisdom of God after the resurection of the Saviour and accession to heaven.But at last he appeared to Paul. The disciples were still  in need of help because of the coming tribulation and persecution.Paul and an ennemy of the cross lefted the disciples of the Lord  speechless even doubting of the radical change.It is the wisdom of God that choose such vessel.We realise that no offense to the brethren Jewish. That killedl the king of glory. Reading  the books of the Acts you notice that Christ the glorified appeared to him.The Spirit told the disciples to set him appart for the work I have called Him scripture point. Althought he sought fellowship with the brethren in Jerusalem and Apostles.He did not seek their approvals for God's call. He was the best instrument for contending and resist them that interfer with the liberty of  the believers.He was such an instrument for to straithen Peter's disimulation and cowerdness before the  law abiding  and followers in Jerusalem. No doudts all of us are confronted at one point or another to face the popular teachings in denominationalism.But Paul was chosen instrument and needed in the beginning premitive Church. Paul was not a half commited Servant. His conversion was radical. He had no fall or turning to his commitment.His sorrow for sin and even death of Stephen. Preaching and expounding the old Testament.No doubt had an impact to his service. He did not betray  His Saviour like Peter in the trying furnace. He would nevertheless Peter was restored and the Word of the Lord Jesus pointed to Peter "When thou was young thou wentest withersoever thou willest,but the day come....were they will lead you were thou wantest not to go....Remark the Word of Paul when reminded of belivers.His response? "why do you break my heart not only to go to Jerusalem but to die!!! Same word of Peter were he failled.Let me ask those that has any hope in the Law. Paul said I count all things but lost for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ.No wonder Paul is still opposed in the mind of law keepers.My counsels? If you see no wisdom even after pointing the scripture.Leave it such are not seeking  the Lord and his kingdom.Love in Yeshua.

[stillseeking]

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It's been my experience that anytime an individual (or a group, for that matter) attack Paul's teachings in Scripture, there is something in those teachings that prohibit something they want to do or require something that they don't.

It's not wise to generalize   And you'd be wrong in assuming that the above statement applies to me.  Actually, I'd find Paul's way a much easier lifestyle than one of Torah observance--but if there's a question--which, there is--then it makes sense to invest the necessary time and effort into getting it right, rather than just *assuming*. 

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God has sent you people in this very thread who have given you answers from the Bible confirming Paul as a true Messenger of God.. But you have rejected their efforts..

Not true.  I'm trying to have a conversation here, and the evidence in favor of Paul isn't very convincing.  I was hoping for better, honestly. 

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Woe to you

Ad hominem fallacy.  Please either provide information furthering your position or don't, but do refrain from attacking my character.  Furthermore, your response indicates that you don't understand my position at all.  Helpful replies only please, thanks. 

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The Message of Paul is truth and you have hated the truth..

Actually I'm trying to find the truth, so you'd be wrong again.  If you'd like to help me find it, that would be great.  Otherwise, why do respond here? 

Do you know what drives seekers away?  Responses like yours.  Thankfully, I'm already a believer, just with some questions.  I can tell you from years of not being one that unhelpful character attacks that provide zero useful information, such as your reply, are exactly what drives people AWAY from the faith.  Please refrain. 

If you want to help new believers, and not just make a prideful display of how right you think you are, then you would do better to address questions, concerns, and doubts with understanding instead of condemnation and judgement. 

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If the Law could save us, we wouldn't have needed a Savior. There would be no 'good news'.

The Jewish position has long been that we are saved by God's grace, not through works.  No one has managed to live a life of perfect Torah adherence except for Yeshua.  Torah has been God's definition of what sin IS through the ages.  Yeshua taught it and observed it.  Early Christians followed it.  The reason Paul and the apostles disagreed was over Torah adherence.  The answer on what role Torah plays in gentile Christianity isn't clear to me.  The church founded by Yeshua has more than the writings of Paul documenting the early followers.  There are many versions of the canonized Bible even.  There are many interpretations of all those versions. 

The truth really isn't apparent at all.  If you weren't indoctrinated with one tradition or another as a child, you'd come into everything trying to sort through the muck and decide what's valid and what isn't, and that's exactly where I'm at. 

If one is to "love God with your whole heart", then surely it would mean keeping his commandments.  Yeshua even made that clear.  Do the works save us?  No.  Are they the works without which faith is dead?  Maybe?  And Paul's teachings seem to contradict this, making them potentially one of the false teachings that the apostles were warned about. 

We are commanded to test the spirits.  Like I said before--if Paul's legit, I trust that this truth will prevail.  Likewise, if he's not, then I'll eventually know that as well, because those who seek do find--and I'm still seeking. 

 

[stillseeking]

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Also remember that the Gospel author Luke is also the author of Acts

Luke was a supporter of Paul.  Anything that Luke wrote, Paul might as well have written

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Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Romans 3:29 (New International Version)

This verse seems to suggest that the Torah is the way we can even know what sin is.  Was there something else you see in the meaning of this verse? 

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Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. Romans 3:21-31 (New American Standard Bible)

This also appears to affirm the validity of the law, even though though keeping the whole of it might not be the practice yet of new believers.  Am I missing something? 

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Truly, truly, I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 (New Heart English Bible)

Yeshua taught Torah and observed it.  In fact, he even made some of the laws stricter (Like Matthew 5:28 "28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.")

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Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy.

I'm struggling with how to practice it.  What God expects from us in terms of observance isn't clear to me.  There are many different opinions on this, and maybe one of them is right.  I have no way of knowing. 

I've heard from different sources that the law is a blessing and that it is a curse.  Hearing the truth is useless if it's heard alongside a bunch of wrong answers that are just as convincing.  Don't believe me?  Try taking a multiple choice test on a subject you know nothing about...and tell yourself, of course, that you'll ace it because, after all, the answers *are* all there. 

It's an issue of discernment.  There can only be one right interpretation.  I'm looking for information to discern what that might be. 

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Althought he sought fellowship with the brethren in Jerusalem and Apostles.He did not seek their approvals for God's call.

And this is exactly my concern...why wouldn't he?  The apostles were *the* people that Yeshua chose to spread his message.  What was the point of his earthly ministry if, afterward, we are to accept that someone with a different message was going to come along, disregard the teachings of the apostles, and just do his own thing?  I have trouble accepting that, especially with all of the points I've made already as to why this seems absurd.  This seems like a weird move for a God who spent so much energy issuing warnings about different gospels and false prophets. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Personaly I loathe long posts, but this fictional interview will answer many ,if not all of you questions.God bless

 

 

 

Stachys: Can we talk about your teachings?

Paul: By all means. The Lord revealed to me doctrines, which I termed “secrets” (μυστήριον). I designated them so because that is what they were. The Lord had not revealed them to Israel’s prophets, nor to the Twelve. He also had kept them hidden during His earthly ministry. They were revelations the ascended Lord revealed exclusively to me.

Stachys: What were these secrets?

Paul: One was the gospel of the grace of God–that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead (Acts 20.24; Galatians 1.11-12) Another was salvation by faith alone–believing the good news that Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead for our justification (1 Corinthians 15.1-4).

Stachys: Peter and the Eleven did not know this gospel and salvation by faith alone?

Paul: No. Peter and the rest preached the gospel of the kingdom which had begun with John the Baptist. That gospel focused upon the identity of Christ–who He was–the Messiah, the Son of God. They looked for the establishment of the kingdom of God on earth with Christ ruling as King (Matthew 6.10). I received my gospel directly from the risen Lord (Galatians 1.11-12). It focused upon His work–that He died for our sins and rose from the dead. The faith part of the gospel of the kingdom was believing Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God (Matthew 16.16; John 11.27; Acts 8.37). But in addition, that gospel also required repentance, keeping the Law, and water baptism for salvation (Mark 1.4, 16.16; Luke 10.25-28; Acts 2.38; Acts 15.1, 5). My gospel (Romans 2.16, 16.25; Galatians 2.2, 7; 2 Corinthians 4.3; 2 Thessalonians 2.14; 2 Timothy 2.8) requires but one thing: trust in the death and resurrection of Christ. When Peter preached the Lord’s death, he did not preach it as good news but as a Jewish crime (Acts 2.22-24, 3.13-15). He demanded the nation repent of it (Acts 2.36-38). For Peter, the significance of the Lord’s resurrection was He could return and establish His kingdom on earth–if the Jewish people would repent (Acts 3.19-20, 25-26). The gospel the Lord gave me proclaims His death and resurrection as goodnews (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). My gospel is a gospel of grace and faith alone (Romans 1.16-17, 3.22, 26, 28, 4.5; Ephesians 2.8-9; 1 Corinthians 15.1-4). The Twelve had no idea Christ’s death and resurrection had paid for the sins of the world and that God had reconciled the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5.14-21). This truth remained hidden until the glorified Lord revealed it to me. The Twelve learned this truth from me (2 Peter 3.15-16).

Stachys: Wow. That’s not what most people have been taught.

Paul: Well, that’s not my fault (smiling). I wrote these things in my letters. They are there for anyone to read. In my first letter to Timothy, I wrote I was the first (πρῶτος), God’s prototype or pattern (ὑποτύπωσις), for those who would follow in this new salvation (1 Timothy 1.15-16). To the Corinthians, in 1 Corinthians 3.10-11, I expressed this truth with an illustration of architecture. I wrote them, “as a wise master-builder, I laid the foundation” (ὡς σοφὸςἀρχιτέκτων θεμέλιον ἔθηκα). The foundation is Christ Himself, specifically His work on the cross and resurrection. The Church, the body of Christ, is the creation which came into being based upon His death and resurrection. The Lord also revealed to me many other truths He had kept hidden.

Stachys: What were these?

Paul: Well, to continue, one was the Church, the body of Christ, in which those who believe my gospel become members of His body. No difference exists between Jew and Gentile in this relationship (Galatians 3.27-28). This was unknown to the Twelve.

Stachys: Peter did not know about the Church? Some teach that the Church came out of Peter.

Paul: Well, no one thought so in my day, especially Peter. Peter knew nothing of the Church. Peter and the rest of the Twelve never had a ministry to Gentiles. Peter, James, John, and Jude wrote to Jews and never mentioned the Church, the body of Christ, in their letters. Peter left Jerusalem to visit Cornelius only through direct communication and prodding from the Lord. And after he returned, the believing Jews in Jerusalem upbraided him for having gone (Acts 10-11). God designated me as the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11.13) and designated the Twelve as apostles of Israel (Matthew 19.28; Galatians 2.7-9). The ascended Christ revealed to me, not Peter or the other apostles, the secret of the Church, the body of Christ (Ephesians 3.2-7; 1.22-23; Colossians 1.19; 1 Corinthians 12.12-27; Galatians 3.28).

Stachys: The Church did not begin at Pentecost?

Paul: Read Luke’s account. What is the definition of the Church, the body of Christ? It is that body in which Jew and Gentile are equal in Christ. Whom did Peter address at Pentecost? Jews or Gentiles? He addressed Jews. Pentecost, or the Festival of Weeks, was a Jewish feast day, held 50 days after Passover. Peter called on the Jewish nation to repent from the murder of the Messiah (Acts 2.5, 14, 22, 36-39). If this was the birth of the Church, why did Peter not address Gentiles? We find the same thing in Peter’s second sermon, in Acts 3. He addressed Jews only (Acts 3.12, 25). Throughout his messages, he quoted the prophets. The Jewish prophets meant nothing to Gentiles. If the Church came into existence at Pentecost, why did no evangelism of Gentiles occur? Read the Scriptures. Peter and the Twelve never had a ministry to Gentiles.

Stachys: Few seem to know this. What else?

Paul: The Lord revealed to me that when one believes my gospel he is identified in Christ’s death and in His resurrection (Romans 6.3-5, 8). This identification is the basis of our hope of resurrection and the key to victory in the Christian life (Romans 6.6-7). Peter and the other apostles knew nothing of this identification truth–of believers being baptized and identified in His death and resurrection.

Stachys: Other truths?

Paul: Several more. The Lord revealed that the one who believes my gospel is under new administration: Grace, not Law (Romans 6.14). God gave the Mosaic Law to Israel, not to Gentiles. The Law’s primary purpose was to condemn and to reveal sin. It had no power to make one better. Peter and the Eleven continued to practice Judaism under the Law of Moses. They knew nothing of a new administration of Grace which replaced the Mosaic Law. Peter finally understood at the Council of Jerusalem that through my gospel one is saved by trusting in Christ’s death and resurrection alone, apart from the works of the Law. Once he saw this, he sided with me (Acts 15.7-11).

Stachys: The Law was bad?

Paul: Heavens, no! The Law was holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7.12). The problem was not with the Law but with us. This is another truth the Lord revealed to me alone. The nature we inherit from Adam cannot keep the Law. I learned this truth through hard experience and wrote about it in Romans 7. When the Law encounters our fallen, Adamic nature it excites sin. It does so because our fallen nature, which I also called the flesh, is in rebellion against God (Romans 7.8, 11, 21, 23, 25). To counter this and conform us into the image of Christ, God has given us a new nature (Romans 7.22; 2 Corinthians 5.17) and placed us under the administration of grace (Romans 6.14). By this arrangement, we can more ably obey Christ. This new relationship operates through faith, hope, and love. The love of Christ constrains us (2 Corinthians 5.14) and through the superintending work of the Holy Spirit, God transforms and sanctifies us to Himself (Romans 8.29), in a way the Law never could (Galatians 5.16-26). We are to “reckon” or “consider” (λογίζομαι) ourselves dead to sin but alive to God (Romans 6.11). This is an act of faith and the key to sanctification and living the Christian life.

Stachys: What about national Israel? What is their future? Do they have a future?

Paul: Yes! God’s covenants and purposes for Israel will be fulfilled. When God establishes a plan and makes a promise, He keeps it (Romans 11.29). At present, national Israel is blind. God revealed this secret to me and I wrote about it in Romans 9-11. When God called Abraham, He began a new program. He laid the foundation for the creation of the Jewish people. He revealed Himself to them and gave them covenantal promises. God promised they would become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Exodus 19.6; Isaiah 61.4-6). He promised they would become the preeminent nation upon the earth and that He Himself will reign as their King and rule the earth (Deuteronomy 28.1, 13; Zechariah 14.9). But at the present time, they are blind (Romans 11.7-8). God removed them (they removed themselves by rejecting Him) from the place of blessing and placed Gentiles into that position. But God will reestablish them into the place of blessing (Romans 11.11-12, 25-27). One day, they will recognize Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah. They will repent and be saved (Matthew 23.37-39; Zechariah 12.10-14, 13.6; Romans 11.26). The prophecies and all God’s promises to Israel will be fulfilled. But this cannot occur until the Lord removes the Church, the body of Christ (Romans 11.25-26). Therefore, the future of Israel is bright!

Stachys: What do you mean, “removes the Church?”

The Ἁρπάζω: the resurrection of believers of Paul’s gospel.

Paul: We can close with this secret–the believer’s great hope (Titus 2.13)–the return of the Lord and the resurrection of our bodies. People get confused about the subject of the Lord’s return. The Lord revealed to me His return for His Church, the body of Christ. This return was a secret and an entirely different event from His return which the prophets taught and which He taught in His earthly ministry. That return will occur at the end of the Tribulation, to deliver Israel and the nations. The return the Lord revealed to me comes before the Tribulation. The Lord will deliver the Church from His wrath (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9). This return was secret (1 Corinthians 15.51). The Rapture and the 2nd Advent are separate events and cannot be harmonized. The word translated “Rapture” comes from the word ἁρπάζω I used when I taught the Thessalonians this wonderful truth (1 Thessalonians 4.13-18). It means to seize or snatch away, which describes what the Lord will do for believers–He will snatch them from the grave and from their mortal bodies and transform them to have resurrection bodies. In my follow-up letter (2 Thessalonians), I wrote to correct the false teaching that the persecution they were experiencing was the Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, I used the word ἀποστασία for “Rapture.”

Stachys: Can you say a bit more why did you use these words? Snatch away and departure from what?

Paul: Jewish theology has two great themes: One is the kingdom of God on earth, in which Christ will rule and Israel will be supreme among the nations, and the other is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord encompasses a long period. It begins with the seven year Tribulation and continues to God’s creation of the New Heavens and New Earth. But most of its focus is upon the Tribulation–when God will exercise His wrath upon the earth. David was the first to write about it in Psalm 2–which is a short course and summary of Jewish theology–no extra charge for that (laughter). But before God pours out His wrath upon the earth He will remove His body, the Church. No believer of my gospel will experience the judgments in those terrible seven years. I taught the Thessalonians this comforting truth (1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.9) and used ἁρπάζω to describe how the Lord will “snatch away” believers to meet Him in the air before He begins to vex the earth. This amazing truth means one generation of believers will not experience physical death. I had hoped to experience this myself but had no idea the Lord would extend His program of the Church for so long. I used ἀποστασία to correct the false teaching the Thessalonians had received that they were experiencing the Tribulation. Believers will depart (ἀποστασία) before the Antichrist, the Beast is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2.1-3). They will experience none of the events of the seven years of God’s wrath.

Stachys: Why do so few know these things? Why is there so much confusion?

Paul: Several reasons account for the confusion. The primary reason is the failure to recognize the vast differences in my ministry and the ministry of Peter and the Eleven, or put another way, God’s program for Israel. When one reads my doctrines and the secrets the Lord revealed to me–God’s program for the Church, the body of Christ–into His covenantal program for Israel, the result is confusion. The two programs are entirely different and cannot be mixed. If they are, confusion results. I dealt with this regarding the gospel at the Council of Jerusalem in 51 A.D. Fortunately, God had prepared Peter for that battle long before, when He commanded him to go to Cornelius’ house. Because God gave him that experience, he was able to grasp what I was saying and come to my aid. Beyond justification, on the matter of the believer’s sanctification, I wrote the whole book of Galatians. The Galatians, influenced by the Judaizers, were being taught that believers of my gospel had to obey the Mosaic Law. They were abandoning my teachings of grace and placing themselves under the Law. They thought they could be conformed into the image of Christ through the Law. I fought that battle but lost. I lost all of Asia. I had spent so much time there–in Galatia, Ephesus, Colossae, Iconium, Derbe, Lystra, Antioch Pisidia–I lost them.

Stachys: You lost them?

Paul: Yes. It was a bitter pill and heart-wrenching to see these believers abandon their freedom in Christ and the truths of grace for the yoke of the Law. I wrote Timothy of this great tragedy (2 Timothy 1.15, 4.14-16). The syncretism in Christendom today–the mixing of Law and Grace, conflating God’s program for the Church and His program for Israel, failure to distinguish the Rapture and the Second Coming, not understanding salvation by faith alone from salvation by faith and works, thinking God has replaced Israel with the Church, believing Peter and I preached the same gospel, the teaching that Peter and the Eleven ministered to Gentiles–I could go on–all these have their roots in the battle I fought in my lifetime. Confusion results from failure to understand the Scriptures–to understand my letters–to see God saved and commissioned me as THE apostle of the Gentiles and that with me He began an entirely new program, the Church, the body of Christ.

Stachys: Thank you. This is sobering. It also is an encouragement to concentrate on your letters and study the truths the Lord revealed to you. Finally, what are your thoughts about today, what concerns you most?

Paul: I am the epitome of God’s love and grace. I was so misguided. I thought I was doing God’s will but had become a religious monster. But God loved me. He chose and commissioned me to reveal His grace and revelations He had kept secret–to all–Jews and Gentiles. God chose me to be to the Church what Abraham and Moses were to Israel. My greatest concern is for those without Christ, without hope, and without eternal life. God wishes all to be saved and come to the truth (1 Timothy 2.4). Christ has done all the work and has made salvation so simple. One need only trust in His work–in His death and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). Living the Christian life is not easy. But God has provided freedom in Christ. Peter noted at the Council of Jerusalem that the Law was a burden, a yoke (Acts 15.10). It was. I know. I was a Pharisee. But those who believe my gospel are under grace. They are free. God has given us the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us. As we came to life by faith, we are to live by faith. God is Life. The more we trust Him the more alive we become. He is our blessed hope–and He is coming–soon!

1 This fictional interview serves as a vehicle to present Paul’s life and doctrines. Luke’s account in Acts is distinctly Jewish and differs in emphasis from Paul’s letters. Luke’s intended audience was Jews and his purpose was to explain Israel’s fall from God’s favor and why the kingdom of God did not come. Paul’s letters addressed Gentiles primarily. In them, we find Church doctrine–doctrines the risen Lord gave for the Church, the body of Christ.

[Adstar]

6 hours ago, stillseeking said:

It's not wise to generalize   And you'd be wrong in assuming that the above statement applies to me.  Actually, I'd find Paul's way a much easier lifestyle than one of Torah observance--but if there's a question--which, there is--then it makes sense to invest the necessary time and effort into getting it right, rather than just *assuming*. 

Not true.  I'm trying to have a conversation here, and the evidence in favor of Paul isn't very convincing.  I was hoping for better, honestly. 

Ad hominem fallacy.  Please either provide information furthering your position or don't, but do refrain from attacking my character.  Furthermore, your response indicates that you don't understand my position at all.  Helpful replies only please, thanks. 

Actually I'm trying to find the truth, so you'd be wrong again.  If you'd like to help me find it, that would be great.  Otherwise, why do respond here? 

 

I know exactly what you wrote because i can read your posts.. You supported the rejection of 2 Peter in your post..  2 Peter is the inspired Word of God..

 

This is what You said:::

""""   This probably wasn't Peter.  2 Peter is one of the most disputed authorships of the entire NT - even ahead of Revelation:   """"

This was a response to the quote showing Peter called Paul a Brother in Christ..   So anything in scripture that has supported Paul as a Messenger of God you have attacked as being questionable in authenticity.. So don't tell me i am wrong.. Your own words speak for themselves..  For everyone to see..

[Tristen]

15 hours ago, stillseeking said:

The Jewish position has long been that we are saved by God's grace, not through works.  No one has managed to live a life of perfect Torah adherence except for Yeshua.  Torah has been God's definition of what sin IS through the ages.  Yeshua taught it and observed it.  Early Christians followed it.  The reason Paul and the apostles disagreed was over Torah adherence.  The answer on what role Torah plays in gentile Christianity isn't clear to me.  The church founded by Yeshua has more than the writings of Paul documenting the early followers.  There are many versions of the canonized Bible even.  There are many interpretations of all those versions. 

The truth really isn't apparent at all.  If you weren't indoctrinated with one tradition or another as a child, you'd come into everything trying to sort through the muck and decide what's valid and what isn't, and that's exactly where I'm at. 

If one is to "love God with your whole heart", then surely it would mean keeping his commandments.  Yeshua even made that clear.  Do the works save us?  No.  Are they the works without which faith is dead?  Maybe?  And Paul's teachings seem to contradict this, making them potentially one of the false teachings that the apostles were warned about. 

We are commanded to test the spirits.  Like I said before--if Paul's legit, I trust that this truth will prevail.  Likewise, if he's not, then I'll eventually know that as well, because those who seek do find--and I'm still seeking. 

...

Luke was a supporter of Paul.  Anything that Luke wrote, Paul might as well have written

“Torah has been God's definition of what sin IS through the ages”

The Law contains ritual, administrative and moral rules. Therefore only a part of the law specifically pertains to sin. Sin also existed before the law. The law does not teach the spirit of morality, only the letter. In Christ, we don’t need to blindly follow a list of rules because we have the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin and guide us into righteousness.

 

“Yeshua taught it and observed it.”

Jesus was obligated to fulfill the law in order to qualify as the Kinsman Redeemer of the Jews. No one, not even Paul, is anti-Law. But the law has its place in contex – i.e. to guide people to faith in Christ through recognition that God is perfectly just, and we are incapable of attaining righteousness by our own efforts. Jesus taught that strict adherence to a list of rules is insufficient to attain the righteousness required for salvation.

 

“Early Christians followed it”

More accurately, it was debated in the “early” church. Some thought it was necessary (e.g. compelled gentile converts to be circumcised). Paul convinced the early church leaders (including Peter and James) that it was not.

 

“The answer on what role Torah plays in gentile Christianity isn't clear to me”

The Law demonstrates that God is perfectly just, that He cannot permit any transgression to go unpunished. It therefore demonstrates our individual depravity and inherent need for a Savior. The Law points us to Christ, the perfect, eternal sacrifice, whose perfectly innocent blood purchased humanity from the just consequences of sin.

The Law guides us to faith, but could never purchase our righteousness. The weakness is in human flesh, not the Law. So a new covenant is required to save us, one which is between the Father and Son (rather than God and corrupted humans) – one that we cannot break (as the Jews perpetually broke the covenant of Law - see Jer 31:31-32). We can receive God’s free offer of salvation, or reject it – but we cannot break the covenant because we are not signatories.

Once we come to faith, the list of rules is obsolete – the Law has done its job. Ironically, if we revert from grace back to Law, we reject the ultimate purpose of the Law.

 

“The church founded by Yeshua has more than the writings of Paul documenting the early followers.  There are many versions of the canonized Bible even.  There are many interpretations of all those versions.”

The canon we have is the one that God has preserved for His believers throughout time. This canon was originally recognised as the compilation of works considered unanimously to be scripture at the time of canonisation. Some groups included disputed texts in their own canons, but are only considered scripture by these groups. Though they have additional scriptures in their Bibles, I am not aware of any such groups that dispute Paul’s authority.

 

“If you weren't indoctrinated with one tradition or another as a child, you'd come into everything trying to sort through the muck and decide what's valid and what isn't, and that's exactly where I'm at.”

I converted to Christianity as an adult. The textual history is clear. God used Paul’s ministry to spread Christianity throughout the Roman Empire. Paul was respected by early church leaders as a legitimate Apostle of Christ. The early church agreed that Paul’s writings were scripture – and they were subsequently included and copied throughout history for our benefit (along with the other scriptures).

 

“If one is to "love God with your whole heart", then surely it would mean keeping his commandments”

You are interpreting “his commandments” to mean the Law.

1 John 3:23

"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

The New covenant commandments are faith in Jesus and love for one another (i.e. “the fruit of the Spirit … against such there is no Law” Gal 5:22-23) – not strict adherence to a list of >600 specific rules; for which it has already been demonstrated that we are incapable of following completely.

 

“Are they the works without which faith is dead? Maybe?  And Paul's teachings seem to contradict this, making them potentially one of the false teachings that the apostles were warned about.”

Both Paul and James agree that we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them” (Eph 2:10).

 

“We are commanded to test the spirits.  Like I said before--if Paul's legit, I trust that this truth will prevail.”

The truth of consistency between Paul and the other Apostles has prevailed for ~2000 years.

 

“Luke was a supporter of Paul.  Anything that Luke wrote, Paul might as well have written”

Your claim is inconsistency between the Gospels and Paul’s teaching – yet a Gospel author explicitly advocates Paul’s ministry in scripture.

[simplejeff]

https://www.torahresourcesinternational.info/pdf/who_wrote_torah.pdf

Conclusion
"Who recorded God’s Word into what is now the first five books of the Bible, the Torah? If is clear from this
 treatment that we believe that the overwhelming evidence points to Moshe.
 Mosaic authorship is assumed by the text of the Torah itself, reiterated
by the rest of the Tanakh, and affirmed by Yeshua and His followers."

"     Indeed, there is nothing within the entire Torah—from Genesis to Deuteronomy —to detract against Mosaic authorship. It was the Holy One Hims elf who testified that

“Since then [the time of Moshe] no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses,
 whom the Lord knew face to face” (Deuteronomy 34:10). It is comforting to know that since the Torah is the basis upon which all of the rest of Scripture was built, the writer,

Moshe, knew the Author of the Torah face to face—more than any other one until Messiah. What an assurance to realize that He who know the Lord face to face, was used by God to perfectly and
 accurately reflect His Holy face onto the leafs of a scroll that we call the Torah.  "