Legalism

[Wayne222]

7 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

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Posted 12 minutes ago

There is a worrying and increasingly infectious attitude that is becoming evident in this forum, though thankfully not among the moderators. That attitude is that when faced with a belief/doctrine they disagree with, the response is to load numerous straw man accusations upon the heads of those proposing the different belief, or different Biblical interpretation, with the suggestion that they be either banned or voluntarily leave. Some of those straw man arguments are...

1. All that seek to obey God's commandments are doing so in order to earn their way to heaven.

2. All that seek to obey God's commandments are forcing their opinions upon others in the forum, suggesting that if they do not immediately surrender to the 'heretic's' demands, they will be lost.

3. All that uphold the law of God (as Jesus did) are legalists. 

 

Peter and Paul admitted that they could not keep the commandments, yet we are supposed to? They let their faith in Christ be counted for their righteousness. I’m absolutely sure they tried to live obedient lives— that pleases God and allows God to bless us. It doesn’t save us.Thats the only point that I am concerned with.

 

         It's not up to anyone if someone stays or leaves. But in scripture it says have nothing to do with a heretic after two or three warnings. Now that was meant in the church. But God must not want fellowship between the two. I guess the board is meant more for debate and proselytizing. 

[simplejeff]

2 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

But in scripture it says have nothing to do with a heretic after two or three warnings. Now that was meant in the church.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

would prevent any pope ever from being a Christian as noted in your next post >>>

8 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

In my view not all popes were in Christ. Some were and some not. It's the same in the Baptist church some are saved some are not. Some Sabbath keepers are saved some are not.

In the Protestant Churches are many, few, or some that are not full of heretics, false teachers, false teachings , false and abominable practices as identified by YHWH in His Word.

Since in the rcc catholic abomination,   heresy and abominations are required to be accepted to be a member,

that rules out a Christian ever rising thru the rank ranks to be even close to popacy.

Like even simple priests Charles Chiniquoy and Martin Luther,  and thousands others,  when they got saved, they were required by the popish authorities to recant and figuratively or literally to bend the knee and kiss the ring of the pope and give allegiance only to the pope (instead of to Jesus) and bow to the pope's authority in all essential matters (directly contrary to Jesus, always opposed to God's Word (Scripture),  OR,  if they would not (and did not) recant,  they would be murdered and / or excommunicated, as they were, AND THEY REJOICED WITH EXCEEDING GREAT JOY when they got the letter of excommunication !!!

And all the angels in heaven REJOICED !!!  exceedingly whenever anyone was saved from that great apostate trouble.

[brakelite]

1 hour ago, Wayne222 said:

         It's not up to anyone if someone stays or leaves. But in scripture it says have nothing to do with a heretic after two or three warnings. Now that was meant in the church. But God must not want fellowship between the two. I guess the board is meant more for debate and proselytizing. 

That all depends on how one ascertains heresy. From my experience most modern definitions of heresy would come under those spurious charges as I detailed in my post. God does not, would not, approve of lies being used to support ones false self defence mechanisms that arise by default every time someone suggests or even just remotely hints at obedience to God's commandments having any effect on salvation.

Obey God? Really? What a ridiculous idea!!! Disobeying God doesn't affect salvation? Of course God gave commandments that couldn't be obeyed. He is that kind of demanding the impossible type of God. Isn't He? And as far as Jesus proving that man could obey God, nah. He had special powers that we don't have that enabled Him to do the impossible. He was born of the nature of unfallen Adam and born to an immaculate woman who didn't inherit original sin, so Jesus was able to live the perfect life. 

The above italics of course are written with fingers firmly in cheek. But do you recognise your own lies anyone?

[Wayne222]

5 minutes ago, brakelite said:

That all depends on how one ascertains heresy. From my experience most modern definitions of heresy would come under those spurious charges as I detailed in my post. God does not, would not, approve of lies being used to support ones false self defence mechanisms that arise by default every time someone suggests or even just remotely hints at obedience to God's commandments having any effect on salvation.

Obey God? Really? What a ridiculous idea!!! Disobeying God doesn't affect salvation? Of course God gave commandments that couldn't be obeyed. He is that kind of demanding the impossible type of God. Isn't He? And as far as Jesus proving that man could obey God, nah. He had special powers that we don't have that enabled Him to do the impossible. He was born of the nature of unfallen Adam and born to an immaculate woman who didn't inherit original sin, so Jesus was able to live the perfect life. 

The above italics of course are written with fingers firmly in cheek. But do you recognise your own lies anyone?

No one is against being obedient  to God. You don't understand what's going on. Like at the council in acts some wanted the gentiles to obey the law of Moses. Want did James say we gave no command that the gentiles have to obey the law. He said some have come and unsettling you saying you had to be circumcised and keep the law which we gave you no such command.  They were given four commands that they would do well if they obey.So be careful that you know what you are saying. Because we should listen to that same council. I think James Peter and Paul knew the right way in this. If some want to keep the law of Moses they are falling away. It's error and not the faith delivered to the saints. It's important not to fall into this error.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

I started obeying God many years ago.....I believed in the One He sent......that’s what Jesus told to His Disciples.....He had the chance to say anything......He said nothing about keeping impossible laws like not lusting in your heart.....or being angry.The impossible standard that God sent was to send proud, deluded  “obedient law-keepers “ to their knees.To get them to see that they were helpless sinners needing a Savior. Kinda like the Publican, seeing his bankrupt condition before a Perfect God could only plead—-God have mercy on me a sinner! If one does not relate to the Publicans experience, I would question  ones repentance.True repentance is the starting point of Christianity.Without seeing you are hopelessly lost....Why turn to a Savior?

[brakelite]

2 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

No one is against being obedient  to God. 

Great!. That is very reassuring. So if God establishes a law and there is absolutely no mention, suggestion, or inference anywhere in scripture, OT or new, that the law which He established has been done away or removed or replaced by another commandment or concept, then you would surely believe that that law still stands right? After all, how many times does God need to repeat Himself really to establish a commandment? Once ought to be enough surely...unfortunately humans are dumb stupid creatures and need constant reminding, so its a good thing that God is patient and always makes things super abundantly clear as to what is required. I mean, we all know about that council of Jerusalem confirming that circumcision is no longer valid...except circumcision of the heart. That was super clear...everyone understands that don't they? ?And we know from Colossians do we not that it is now a voluntary observance for any Christian to observe the feast days and annual Sabbaths that were shadows of Christ's Messiahship, right? We are not to judge people if they choose to do so, particularly when in all good conscience they believe a genuine blessing comes from such observance and recommends it to others. We wouldn't call them heretics, Judaisers, or legalists huh. Nor would we claim they believe its salvational, despite none of them saying such a thing. Lying about their testimony would be against the 9th commandment wouldn't it. Oh, sorry, is lying still wrong? 

So its a good thing also aye that God has made it so abundantly clear for us stupid dumb creatures regarding the weekly Sabbath. I mean, there are commands and recommendations all through the NT that advocate or recommend its complete withdrawal from Christian religious life. And even more that clearly state that the 'Jewish' Sabbath so called is not a Christian Sabbath, and that Christians now don't have to observe any day...no, hold on, there's heaps of texts demanding we  have to observe Sunday...oh, sorry, no, I forgot the numerous texts that explain that Jesus is now the Christian Sabbath rest....hold on, that cant be right, what about all the scriptures that state that  so long as they observe one day in seven they are observing the spirit of the law. Wow, its a good thing that God has made His commandments so clear isn't it. Could be confusing.

Thank God we have that council to tell us that there are only 4 commandments to keep. Funny that Paul never thought Sabbath keeping was an issue. Wonder why the early Christian church never had an issue with it either. Maybe they considered the Sabbath commands in the OT sufficient motivation for obedience?

[brakelite]

2 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

I started obeying God many years ago.....I believed in the One He sent......that’s what Jesus told to His Disciples.....He had the chance to say anything......He said nothing about keeping impossible laws like not lusting in your heart.....or being angry.The impossible standard that God sent was to send proud, deluded  “obedient law-keepers “ to their knees.To get them to see that they were helpless sinners needing a Savior. Kinda like the Publican, seeing his bankrupt condition before a Perfect God could only plead—-God have mercy on me a sinner! If one does not relate to the Publicans experience, I would question  ones repentance.True repentance is the starting point of Christianity.Without seeing you are hopelessly lost....Why turn to a Savior?

So you have a problem with lust and anger? And because you have this problem, instead of in faith coming to God for strength to overcome, you claim those commandments are impossible to obey? You speak of repentance. Are you not aware that true repentance is a complete turning away from sin? What kind of tyrannical God demands repentance from sin which people cannot possibly stop? What kind of unreasonable God commands us to do the impossible? When Jesus told the prostitute to go and sin no more, did she reply that's impossible? 

As for your sentence "The impossible standard that God sent was to send proud, deluded  “obedient law-keepers “ to their knees." is the most nonsensical statement on this entire thread. Yes, the law directs us to Christ. Because in our carnal nature and condition it is indeed impossible to obey God's laws. In fact, the carnal nature is at enmity against the laws of God. But we are not carnal!  The old carnal nature is dead, the dominion and rulership of sin is now over, we are freed from that slavery of unrighteousness. We have more power abiding in us than was used to create the worlds. We have Christ Himself in us, His Spirit is within, God with us, which means that through faith and prayer we have at our disposal exceeding great and precious promises that through uniting with the divine, we can obey!!!     If you desire to obey, you can. With the right mindset, those commandments become promises. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not kill. You shall not lust. You shall not covet. Promises, every one. The fulfillment of those promises is based not on our obedience, but on faith. We believe they can be obeyed, and we find we can do exceedingly above all that we ask or think. If you continue to believe that obedience is impossible, then your faith is lacking my friend, and you will never overcome. Not because the commandments are impossible, but because you believe they are impossible. And what you believe for, you receive.

[simplejeff]

YHWH says a few things about law breakers vs sinners. Everyone , realize, is a sinner.  What did the law breakers do though?

"Men of Isra’el! Listen to this! Yeshua from Natzeret was a man demonstrated to you to have been from God by the powerful works, miracles and signs that God performed through him in your presence. You yourselves know this. 

This man was arrested in accordance with God’s predetermined plan and foreknowledge;

and, through the agency of persons not bound by the Torah,

you nailed him up on a stake and killed him!"

[Justin Adams]

12 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

You don't believe in the trinity?

Was pointing out that the trinity is mentioned in the bible.

Legalism aint...

[brakelite]

15 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Sorry Frienduff you are wrong about this. The Trinity is not in the bible either. But we know God is a trinity. You can be legalistic in how you live. People also add to Gods commandments like he does not command Christian to obey the seventh day Sabbath.  So if one requires it from others to be saved them they are in fact being legalistic. Making up rules that need not be. 

At least the Sabbath commandment is in scripture...it is your personal opinion that claims it doesn't apply to Christians, because nowehere does it say it applies only to Jews. Remember, the Gentiles met on Sabbath in response to Paul's preaching.

As to the trinity. Yes, we believe the Godhead is comprised of 3 persons. The Father, the source of all things...the Son, through whom all things were created, and the Spirit of God or Christ by whom the power and life of God is dispensed throughout creation. But the trinity doctrine, as taught and made a test of fellowship and salvation throughout Christendom, goes way beyond what the Bible teaches and is an assumed doctrine and a man-made definition of the nature of God which all admit is a mystery. No man by searching can find out God. No creature can understand the Almighty to perfection. The finite man cannot comprehend infinity. Therefore in discussions about the trinity, about the nature of Christ, and the holy Spirit, are manifestations of gross presumption. Yet we make the belief in the trinity doctrine a test of fellowship. Now THAT is legalism. 

If I knew what you meant by the term trinity, I may or may not agree with you...everyone has different interpretations as what the trinity actually is. From the days of Athanasius until now all discussion and debate has been an attempt to define the incomprehensible. Thousands have been put to death for not professing belief in a formula which even its professors could not comprehend, nor state in terms that anybody else could comprehend. And yet even on this very forum it is made a test or criteria for being a Christian! That is way way more legalistic than any person could ever be in recommending obedience to a specific commandment of the Most High. 

Making up rules that need not be? That is the trinitarian doctrine, of whatever flavour or colour your particular interpretation may be. Legalism to the very core...and pure Romanism.

Edited January 21, 2018 by brakelite