Unfruitful Christians

[frienduff thaylorde]

7 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I was quoting you this time.  Perhaps I did not understand your statement " SO it is better to have said for them to avoid persecutions"

No.  we never stop warning or speaking truth to avoid persecution.   

[frienduff thaylorde]

13 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

I am feeling a little better thanks. I suspect it will be two weeks before normal brother. The flu out break in Korea north and south is really bad. I read it's the bird flu which is super bad. That's the one the government's are afraid of.

Hold the horses.     I must have been half asleep.  DID you SAY BIRD FLU.    That things a killer. 

[Heleadethme]

On 1/29/2018 at 12:31 PM, GandalfTheWise said:

My experience has been that fruit is the result of spiritual growth and being transformed.   It is by focusing on spiritual disciplines such as prayer, devotional bible reading, connecting with other Christians, and such things that we grow spiritually.  Such things as   love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Gal 5:22-23) are a result of being transformed, not a result of specifically working hard at those things in our own strength.  They are things that naturally emerge in our lives as we grow spiritually.  

It's easy to get our focus on the problems and try to solve them; all of us have done that.  But often, those things that most concern us are simply symptoms of lack of spiritual growth and maturity.  It is the continued pressing in toward God and learning to consistently walk with Him that causes us to change from the inside out.  Sometimes, those things that most concern us just simply disappear over time as we grow.

I agree that is true about some things that slough off in the beginning and as we go along without too much trouble on our part..........and we need to consider that part of the Lord's work upon our hearts is done through the chastisements that He brings into our life.........and the cross that we bear as we deny ourselves, which is effective to crucify our flesh and self-life.  But there are some problems in our heart that we are not even aware of until the Lord brings them to the surface, to our awareness......and then we need to PRESS into the Lord, CONFESS to Him, SEEK His strength, and ASK Him to change our heart and PERSEVERE and keep asking until He does it.  The kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force.

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

That is your opinion.  I see a lot of posts lately do nothing but tear apart His body, discourage anyone from seeking a church, and speak only of the ugliness seen in certain places as if it was world wide.  So many generalities are spoken; we, you, us , everyone, and no specifics, leaving the reader to assume it is everywhere and everyone.

I can start posting these posts to show how general it is written and very little is specific.  When someone wants to discuss a specific issue, I'm all for it.  Yet, blanket statements are no more than lies.  The ugliest is when addressing today's church as if it is all inclusive.

Agree that sometimes we can assume others have more background knowledge of a particular subject than they actually do have, and then there is a problem when we use our own terminology and slang to refer to things, which doesn't help those who are not familiar with the problem being talked about.....and it leads to misunderstanding.  All we can do is ask questions if we don't know what the heck somebody is saying.  And try to be mindful when we are bringing things, that not everybody has the same background information that we have. So that is a good reminder, thanks.

Not sure if this is where there might be some misunderstanding or not......but in case its helpful, the "all-inclusive" term is being used to refer to what is often called ecumenicalism, a false belief that all roads and all religions lead to the same God, and that we can therefore in the interest of peace between all, be united with all.  It is being warned against, not saying that all churches are embracing this false doctrine yet, but that it is gathering speed and it is SEEKING to lead all churches and believers astray.  Roman Catholic church under this current Pope especially is actively engaged in bringing all evangelical protestant churches back under its umbrella........as well as all other religions outside of Christendom.  This is the interfaith or ecumenical agenda.  It is looking like this is the very strong delusion that we were warned about in 2 Thessalonians.  The hour is later than many know.  Many churches are softening in their stance against Catholicism and some have already essentially reunited with the RCC and some even are adopting catholic practices.  It is mind-boggling, sometimes I have to pinch myself and ask is this really happening.......but sadly, I'm afraid it is.

[SisterActs2]

Hello everyone

I feel the need to add this:

We need to ask ourselves - "what exactly is the fruit we are talking about?  Yes, we know what the fruit of the Spirit is.  Are we talking about the works we do, or the witness (by our lives) we show others, or the activity we share in at church; or what God has done in our lives to change us?"

Is it to do with being grafted into the vine and receiving the Vinedresser's loving, tender pruning and supplying of all that branch needs that will ultimately produce good fruit?

I believe it is as some have said.  It is living and abiding in Him..... it is humbling ourselves under the Master's hand; being willing to receive from Him, whether teaching, chastisement, some sort of growth..... all these we count as joy, as we know our Lord is nurturing us and helping us to grow into the people He wants us to be.

We have people who don't contribute, who seem to be pew sitters.  But the Lord has been dealing with me for some time now about my judgemental attitudes to people who don't fit my criteria.  And I have learned this:  He has taught me that I am not their judge.  I am simply to love them, and help them where I can, and they me.  Who knows what He is doing in their lives?  We only see them at church.  We don't know what is going on otherwise.

If there is a problem with false doctrine, that is another matter.  Then we speak up.  But let the Lord deal in our own lives and leave the production of fruit in others' lives to Him.

Love to all my brothers and sisters

[Heleadethme]

28 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

If the first statement is true then you have absolutely no moral basis with which to make a thread like this, since you would have to include yourself in the group of people you are denigrating.  It's all about the context of the word.  If your fruit is all bad, then where is the Holy Spirit's presence in your soul?  Our works are not good, in and of themselves, but since we have the imputed righteousness of Christ and the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit, our fruit should be able to be delineated between whether it is bad or good and Jesus quite plainly tells us that this is the case.  I will repeat that couched in the original terms of the OP, your judgment is completely subjective.

It is wiser to exhort than it is to scold.  It does much more good to encourage than it does to constantly point out a negative.  No one benefits from thread after thread of, "The Church is messed up and dead."  Some might be, but not all are, and in most cases, this rational is actually driven by an attitude of, "All churches are messed up . . . except mine."  Unless one is sitting inside any individual church, you have absolutely no idea whether it is actually in error or not.  The same rational applies to judging wide swaths of people with a blanket thread like this.  "Unfruitful Christians."  You've personally talked to every person who calls themselves a Christian and you are a qualified arbiter of whether they are fruitful or not?  Because that is what you are implying.

Goodness me, the OP WAS an exhortation, he wasn't singling anyone out to scold them.....even though sometimes that is needed too.  Much ado about nothing here, I'm afraid.  It was a good and needed admonishment.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

28 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

Yes; scolding is simply telling someone what they did wrong. Exhortation is encouraging someone in the right way to do something. It's the difference between simply berating someone and correction, as a person cannot repent of a wrong until they both desire to turn around from it and know which way is "the other way".

It may sound simple on the surface, but there are many "ways" in this life which are not truly away from a wrong, and only one way which is God's way.

Scolding is rebuke......it has it's place, along with other methods of correction and encouragement etc.

[OneLight]

7 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Agree that sometimes we can assume others have more background knowledge of a particular subject than they actually do have, and then there is a problem when we use our own terminology and slang to refer to things, which doesn't help those who are not familiar with the problem being talked about.....and it leads to misunderstanding.  All we can do is ask questions if we don't know what the heck somebody is saying.  And try to be mindful when we are bringing things, that not everybody has the same background information that we have. So that is a good reminder, thanks.

Not sure if this is where there might be some misunderstanding or not......but in case its helpful, the "all-inclusive" term is being used to refer to what is often called ecumenicalism, a false belief that all roads and all religions lead to the same God, and that we can therefore in the interest of peace between all, be united with all.  It is being warned against, not saying that all churches are embracing this false doctrine yet, but that it is gathering speed and it is SEEKING to lead all churches and believers astray.  Roman Catholic church under this current Pope especially is actively engaged in bringing all evangelical protestant churches back under its umbrella........as well as all other religions outside of Christendom.  This is the interfaith or ecumenical agenda.  It is looking like this is the very strong delusion that we were warned about in 2 Thessalonians.  The hour is later than many know.  Many churches are softening in their stance against Catholicism and some have already essentially reunited with the RCC and some even are adopting catholic practices.  It is mind-boggling, sometimes I have to pinch myself and ask is this really happening.......but sadly, I'm afraid it is.

Yes, this is what I have an issue with.  What is being said is true, but not new.  Yet, when someone claims just "churches" or " today's churches", they are making a blanket statement, and just about every blanket statement is false.  The only way "churches" or "today's churches" could ever be true is if the one making the statement visited all churches and knew the theology and doctrine of all churches. 

You see, words carry meaning, and the lack of words cause confusion.  It is best to be factual when making claims if what is being said is to be both understood and accepted for discussion.  Otherwise, I may be thinking one thing and someone else another, and when that happens, confusions flourishes. 

[Heleadethme]

34 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Yes, this is what I have an issue with.  What is being said is true, but not new.  Yet, when someone claims just "churches" or " today's churches", they are making a blanket statement, and just about every blanket statement is false.  The only way "churches" or "today's churches" could ever be true is if the one making the statement visited all churches and knew the theology and doctrine of all churches. 

You see, words carry meaning, and the lack of words cause confusion.  It is best to be factual when making claims if what is being said is to be both understood and accepted for discussion.  Otherwise, I may be thinking one thing and someone else another, and when that happens, confusions flourishes. 

Okay, thanks for the heads up.  Speaking for myself, when I say churches, or the churches, I am usually referring to the majority of churches in North America and the western world today.......the falling away that was spoken of in 2 Thessalonians.  I'm aware there are some pockets of true gospel and true Christianity still......these I call a remnant.  I'll try to be more precise in the future, thank you.

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

59 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Much ado about nothing here, I'm afraid.

I agree.

 

13 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

I asked him to do so, but I got silence on that one.

I just posted what I believed I should... If what I did was wrong or not, I believe not. But who am I after all.

 

I am sorry if indeed I did something wrong... You Cobalt1959, is a member I respect a lot in this forum.

 

But surely I am not ready to get into a more detailed debate over this, this has affected me negatively, and more than I've expected.

But what I have written, I have written, and it is there for anyone to see. If it is good or bad, let the reader judge for himself.

 

Again, I just did what I believed I should.

"For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 4:4