Will there be a per-trib rapture

[Montana Marv]

14 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Not everything that is written after 4:1 happens after the seven churches, for example, parts of Revelation 12.  Some of it provides background information.  Such is the case with chapters 4 & 5.  Chapters 4 & 5 are there to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to open the scroll and bring about the end of Satan's rule.  If you disagree with that, then please tell me where Jesus was when the question was asked in Rev 5:2.

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

If Revelation 4 & 5 is chronologically after the seven churches, as you presume, then where was Jesus?  He wasn't in heaven and he wasn't on the earth or under it.  Where was He?

With the Bride, the door was shut.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

Just now, Montana Marv said:

With the Bride, the door was shut.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I can't argue with your fairy tale.  Have a great day.

[Montana Marv]

19 minutes ago, Royff said:

If the disciples are not in this list of elders, then that could only have meant one thing, the 24 elders must have predated the 12 disciples and therefore are spirit beings who were there before the disciples. Something is not adding up here if we are talking about the elders of the Gospel.

They were there at the beginning, how could someone come along two thousand years later and be their elders? The more you go down this road, the less sense it makes. The elders are the ones who were there from the beginning, at the laying of the foundation. Now maybe you have a different definition of elder ,if so I would love to hear it.  

You have absolutely no Scriptural proof of what you just said.  Christ laid down the foundation, He is the cornerstone.  And Elder is described in Titus 1:6.  Blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.  These are the qualifications of being an elder.  So being one of the 24, one must be the best of the best.  Who is included, only a guess.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Royff said:

Ok, you don't have anything else, you have just created your own definition of elder.

The definition of an Elder is in Scripture. Titus 1:6.  You cannot refute this, that is why you bow out. The truth has been revealed, and you cannot refute it.  It busts your bubble.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

8 minutes ago, Royff said:

adjective, a compar. of old with eldest as superl.

1.

of greater age; older.

2.

of higher rank; senior:

an elder officer.

3.

of or relating to former times; earlier:

Much that was forbidden by elder custom is accepted today.

 

 

 

 

 

Titus 1:6 - An Elder must be 1. Blameless, 2.  The husband of but one wife, 3. a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.  These are an Elders qualifications, If they miss 1, 2 or 3, they are not qualified to be an Elder.

I don't care about their being senior to someone else or being older.  They do not qualify if they lack 1, 2, 3.  No matter what their rank is.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

8 minutes ago, Royff said:

 

When they were appointing elders in the church they were appointing twenty year old who have not had very much life experience above a 60 year old who have more life experience. That church would be in trouble!

The church would be in trouble when a senior ranking member lacks the proper qualification. One who has been divorced while a Believer, one whose children are not Believers or are disobedient.   A two year old believer who is 60 years old is less qualified than a 30 year old with 10 years of Believing experience and meets Titus 1:6.

 In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

11 hours ago, Royff said:

In school the student must learns from the elder, your would is turned upside-down and would be headed for chaos, with the student teaching the teacher, with the intern teaching the doctor.  

One who walks with the Lord for 10 years and is 30 years old is the elder to a 60 year old who has walked with the Lord for only 2 years

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Steve Conley]

On 2/6/2018 at 7:01 PM, JoeCanada said:

Will there be a pre-trib rapture? We can know the answer to the question with certainty.  The timing of the rapture hinges on what the verse  2 Thessalonians 2: 3 really says.  Does the Greek words ho aostasia in this passage mean “rapture” or “apostasy. ”  All other rapture arguments are secondary to this one.

 

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed. (2 Thess. 2:3)

The main controversy in this passage is what the Greek words translated ” the apostasy” [ho apostasia] mean.  Believers in a Pre-Tribulation rapture say it is a code word for “the rapture.” Believers in the Pre-Wrath position say it means “the rebellion  from the faith.”

Paul states at the beginning of this very verse that we are not to be deceived.  It is incumbent on every Christian to understand this passage because there is great deception in the Church about this verse.  One side of the argument is obviously correct and the other is deceiving the Church.  It is the responsibility of every Christian to understand the argument of this contested passage and teach the truth.

Church historians believe that Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians were the earliest letters that Paul wrote with 1 Thessalonians dating to 52 AD (about 20 years after Jesus’ resurrection) and 2 Thessalonians being written a year later.  In these early letters of Paul, he discusses more end time issues than he does in all his other letters to the churches combined.

It appears that after Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians, the Church at Thessaloniki received a forged letter from someone claiming to be Paul.  Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to answer the mistaken views that the forgery produced.  It is in that setting that the controversial section finds itself.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,  who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God,displaying himself as being God. (2 Thess. 2: 1-4 NASB)

Before we examine the exegesis of ho apostasia, let’s examine the passage in context because meaning is always found in its surroundings.

WHAT PAUL SAID BEFORE THIS

Context means whatever comes before it and what comes after.  The passage before this one (2 Thess. 1: 4-12) lays the groundwork for the discussion. We see in verse 4 that the Church was undergoing severe persecution.  This in combination with the forged letter, led many to think the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath) had begun.  In verse five Paul makes an enormously important point:

This (the persecution) is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.  (2 Thess. 1: 5-8 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

The first thing we learn is that persecution of the Church is normal and even considered a sign that believers are considered worthy of the Kingdom of God.  Those who argue that the purpose of the rapture is to prevent persecution need to read this verse.   Paul is teaching that persecution, even severe persecution,  is normal and a sign from God that we are worthy.

This passage then also states that upon the return of Jesus, He will give relief to those who are afflicted and punish the wicked who afflicted us.  By this Paul is re-assuring the Thessalonians that they haven’t missed the rapture,  it hadn’t happened yet because they haven’t seen their relief upon the return of Christ.

He also mentions that Christ’s Holy Angels are part of His coming.  This is to reassure them that it will not be a silent rapture.  Paul is saying Christ will be “revealed” in flaming fire.  It also shows that God begins pouring out his wrath once the Church is removed.

IT WILL NOT COME UNLESS

Paul then launches into the controversial passage.  He begins by reassuring the Thessalonians again that Jesus has not come and raptured his Church yet.  The reason he mentions the Day of the Lord (the Wrath of God) is that the rapture (the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him) must come before the Day of the Lord. God will not let his Church experience his wrath.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (2 Thess. 2: 1-2 NASB)

Next comes the verses that cause all the controversy.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,  who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God,displaying himself as being God. (2 Thess. 2: 3-4 NASB)

Paul says that “it” (the Day of the Lord and the rapture that precedes it) will not come unless two things happen: “ho apostasia” (the controversial words) and the revealing of the Antichrist.  Verse four proves this “man of sin” is the Antichrist because he is the one who sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be god.  Only the Antichrist does this.  It is how the Church will identify him.  All the “Antichrist theories” out there today are meaningless.  Only by sitting in the Temple can we know for sure the man is Antichrist.

WHICH COMES FIRST

Some in the church teach that “ho apostasia” happens first and then the Antichrist is revealed.  They teach this because of Paul’s use of the word “first” after “ho apostasia.”  Paul, however, consistently uses “first then” if he means a sequence of events.  He always does this.  It is a consistent pattern in is writings. An example is found in the most famous rapture verse of all.

The dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together.  (1 Thess. 4: 16-17 NASB, empahsis mine)

Because Paul does not use the word “then” in conjunction with the word “first,” we can be assured that “ho apostasia” and the revealing of the Antichrist are two events that happen at the same time and both precede the rapture.  We know that the revealing of the Antichrist is his sitting in the Temple of God.  We know from MIDPOINT OF THE TRIBULATION: EARTH’S PERSPECTIVE  that this occurs at the Midpoint of the Tribulation.  Nearly all commentators believe this. We have already proven the rapture cannot occur until 3 1/2 years after the Tribulation has begun when the Antichrist is revealed.  

SO IS IT RAPTURE OR APOSTASY

So now let’s finally look at the etymology of the words ho apostasia.  The first word ho means “the.”  This means that this apostasia is the definitive one.  There may be others but this is the significant one.

This is what HELP’S Word-studies and Strong’s Dictionary say about the second word:

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, “leave, depart,” which is derived from 575 /apó, “away from” and 2476 /histémi, “stand”) – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, “a leaving, from a previous standing.”

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

Several older 15th century English translations of the Bible claimed the word meant “the departure.”  These mis-translations were based on one of the words apostasia was derived from: aphistemi.  This mis-translation led those who support a Pre-Tribulation rapture to say that this word is a “code word” for rapture: “the departure.”

But as can be clearly seen above, apostasia means “departure from a previous standing. ” It means a rebellion or defection from the faith in this context.

This is not the only time this word is used in the new testament.  The other use of this word in Acts cements its true meaning:

You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. (Acts 21: 20-21 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

In this passage, the elders of the Church at Jerusalem were talking to Paul.  They told Paul that the faithful Jews in Jerusalem had been told that he was teaching the gentiles to apostasia Moses.  By this, the elders obviously meant the Jews were told that Paul was teaching gentiles to depart from the faith imparted by Moses.

This exact match of meaning proves that apostasia means rebellion from the faith or falling away from the faith.

WHAT COMES AFTER THIS PASSAGE

After the controversial passage, Paul supports this meaning of apostasia:

The one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness (The Antichrist) for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (2 Thess. 2: 9-12 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

Is Paul talking about those who were already opposed to Christ or is this passage about those falling away in the great apostasy?  Those already opposed to Christ don’t need a deluding influence to oppose Christ, they are already fallen.  In this passage Paul is is discussing the reason that former professing saints will fall away in the great apostasy .   This is critical because Paul would not have included this follow-up passage explaining the great apostasy  unless he had just mentioned it a few verses earlier.   Otherwise Paul would have simply been entering a random thought into his letter. This contextual proof is further supports our position that a pre-tribulation rapture is absolutely without merit.

SUMMARY

We have learned:

• Apostasia means apostasy or rebellion from the faith.
• Persecution is normal and a sign of worthiness.  The rapture is nota means of escaping persecution.
• The rapture won’t be silent.  Jesus will come with his Holy Angels and fire.  The wrath of God will begin immediately after the rapture.
• The rapture cannot occur until after the Antichrist is revealed at the midpoint of the Tribulation (Daniel’s 70th Week) and after the great apostasy which begins at the same time.

Now that we know these things, the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4 completely shatters two theories:

• the pre-tribulation rapture theory
• the theory that the rapture is imminent (that no other prophecies must be fulfilled prior to the rapture.)

If you currently are holding either of these theories, I am sure this post has been challenging.  The theory of a pre-tribulation rapture is one of the most comforting theories held by the Church, but if it is wrong it is incredibly dangerous. The Church needs to prepare itself for what is to come.  Thinking we will avoid persecution and possible martyrdom is a path to potentially falling away when faced with the truth.

Consider and pray about these things.

(Nelson Walters....."Are we ready for Jesus")

John 16:33 – Jesus Christ said to His followers, “In the world YOU shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 – Paul told Christians, “WE through much tribulation must enter the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 24:21,22 – Jesus said there would be “great tribulation” which His followers (the “elect”) must endure. Yet for “the elects sake, those days shall be shortened.”

Romans 5:3 – True Christians are to “glory in tribulations” because “tribulation works patience” and develops Christian character.

Revelation 1:9 – John was our “companion in tribulation.”

Revelation 2:9 – To His church, Jesus said, “I know your works and tribulation…”

Revelation 2:10 – Again to His church, Jesus said, “YOU shall have tribulation…”

Revelation 7:14 – God’s final people “came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” They did not escape it, but endured through it, being purified.

 

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

JoeCanada, I am 100% pre-wrath in my teaching of the timing of the rapture, However, the answer to your question is Yes & No.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The real tribulation that we are not appointed unto (1Thes 5:9) is God's Tribulation upon the Beast worshiping earth dwellers who had been persecuting the elect and Israel in the great tribulation.

Interestingly, it is still a true statement that I am pre-trib, but the period of tribulation must be qualified.

All Glory be unto the Lamb

Edited March 1, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Steve Conley]

1 hour ago, Royff said:

That’s good work you’ve done here, but where the confusion comes in is that people confuse the tribulation with the Day of the Lord or the wrath of God. The Day of the Lord is the wrath of God and no true Christian will receive the wrath of God. But the Church of Christ will be persecuted and will face tribulation until the Day of the Lord or the Lord’s return, it is at that point the Church is removed so that they will not receive the wrath of God. I believe the problem is in confusing the Day of the Lord with the tribulation that Christians must face until the Day of the Lord. I found your work very interesting!  I believe in a pre-wrath of God rapture, not a pre-tribulation rapture.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Royff, I thought my diagram was self explanatory, but maybe it's not. I think you and I agree that there are two distinct periods of tribulation in the last half of the week.

1) The great tribulation, which is Satan's wrath through the Beast, False prophet, and their followers upon the church (elect) and Israel.

2) God's wrath on the day of the Lord, which is the pouring out of His fierce indignation in the form of the trumpet judgements, vial judgements, and the sword of His mouth at Armageddon. These He pours upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers who had persecuted the elect and Israel.

Hallelujah