seeking the lost Posted February 13, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said: I don't know what "texts" or text you are speaking of since you did not cite any text ? The primary text of the rapture are I Cor.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. and I Thessalonians 4: 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I assumed that if you know anything about the rapture that you would know these verses sorry for that assumption. Both of these text indicate that the resurrection preceeds the rapture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keras Posted February 13, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,686 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 301 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/31/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/07/1941 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 hour ago, seeking the lost said: The primary text of the rapture are I Cor.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. and I Thessalonians 4: 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I assumed that if you know anything about the rapture that you would know these verses sorry for that assumption. Both of these text indicate that the resurrection preceeds the rapture. Neither of these 'rapture proofs', say anything about the Church being taken to heaven. 1 Cor 15 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgement; after the Millennium. Proved by Rev 21:1-7 where it is only then that Death is no more. 1 Thess 4:15-17 is about the Return of Jesus for His Mill reign, He comes down from heaven and when He send out His angels to gather His own. Matthew 24:30-31. This merely a transportation the where Jesus is, that will be in Jerusalem. I suggest that you find verses that tells us much better what God really does plan for His people in the end times and avoid the teachings of man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted February 13, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2018 19 hours ago, Yowm said: It’s like striking at strawmen. I agree. Pre-trib is a definite and scriptural straw thingy. Can a bad tree produce good fruit? That is why one needs to check out the sources. When the sources are exposed, then it is straightforward to see how that cunningly contrived 'doctrine?' has ensued. It will be the downfall of many unless we preach truth - even if unpopular. That alone, the popularity of pre-trib, should jangle loud warning bells! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted February 13, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2018 10 hours ago, Keras said: Neither of these 'rapture proofs', say anything about the Church being taken to heaven. 1 Cor 15 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgement; after the Millennium. Proved by Rev 21:1-7 where it is only then that Death is no more. 1 Thess 4:15-17 is about the Return of Jesus for His Mill reign, He comes down from heaven and when He send out His angels to gather His own. Matthew 24:30-31. This merely a transportation the where Jesus is, that will be in Jerusalem. I suggest that you find verses that tells us much better what God really does plan for His people in the end times and avoid the teachings of man. Hi Keras I did not use these texts as rapture proofs. I have pointed out that both of these have been used as primary texts for the rapture and contain the order of things. First the dead in Christ shall rise (resurrection) and then we who are alive and remain will be caught up. There is not a resurrection before the tribulation , therefore there cannot be a rapture before the tribulation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted February 13, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2018 18 hours ago, seeking the lost said: Greetings Montana Marv, Jesus taught many things concerning the way that the kingdom works and what it is. This parable teaches that both the wheat (those swon of good seed) and the tares (those swon by the wicked one) will grow together until the proper time which is the time of the harvest. The proper time is revealed in Revelations 14: The Harvest of the Earth 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Notice the first that are gathered are cast into the wine press of the wrath of God. That is Armageddon, which is the winepress. Those thrown into the Lake of Fire happen after the Mill. When the Books are opened. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted February 13, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2018 Marv is correct Armageddon at the end of the tribulation period Then 1000 years later the wheat and tares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted February 14, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2018 22 hours ago, Yowm said: Seems to me Rome is doing her darnest to belittle pre Tribulationists, that should tell you something right there lol. Ah yes. Wheels within wheels. Now Rome seems to be trying to (pretend) to broker and Israeli 'peace' deal. Even a stopped clock is correct twice daily. Enough clocks and maybe many will tell the correct time. One thing (or many) seems to be apparent - it will not happen as expected. So now we scramble for ideas and opinions, as if they will be of any use whatsoever when the crunch comes. '.. a horse, a horse - my kingdom for a horse..' Famous last words of Richard III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keras Posted February 14, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,686 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 301 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/31/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/07/1941 Share Posted February 14, 2018 (edited) On 2/14/2018 at 3:33 AM, seeking the lost said: Hi Keras I did not use these texts as rapture proofs. I have pointed out that both of these have been used as primary texts for the rapture and contain the order of things. First the dead in Christ shall rise (resurrection) and then we who are alive and remain will be caught up. There is not a resurrection before the tribulation , therefore there cannot be a rapture before the tribulation. So you believe that all the Christian dead will be resurrected before Jesus Returns? As per 1 Cor 15? This idea conflicts with Revelation 20:4, which happens after the Return and only brings back to life those murdered during the 3 1/2 year rule of the Anti-Christ. They are not made immortal yet, but the second death has no power over them, as their names are in the Book of Life. Rev 21:1-7 Edited February 14, 2018 by Keras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted February 15, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2018 20 hours ago, Keras said: So you believe that all the Christian dead will be resurrected before Jesus Returns? As per 1 Cor 15? This idea conflicts with Revelation 20:4, which happens after the Return and only brings back to life those murdered during the 3 1/2 year rule of the Anti-Christ. They are not made immortal yet, but the second death has no power over them, as their names are in the Book of Life. Rev 21:1-7 I believe that there are two resurrections. The first is at the end of the tribulation. This resurrection is a closed set resurrection. Closed set means that only those who are stated are included in this resurrection. The second resurrection includes everyone who is not included in the first resurrection. The defined order of the resurrection and the rapture can only come at this time. The purpose of the rapture is to take us to a new heaven and a new earth. The Revelation 20 text is primary in my understanding of these things. Rev 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The warning to not add to or take away from the words of this prophecy is a very serious warning. Rev. 22: 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. {THE END.} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted February 15, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2018 Many people are confused by what a or the Resurrection really is. It is a bodily change. There is a Resurrection for the Just, Christ being the First Fruit. This is why it is called the First Resurrection. The second or later Resurrection is for the Unjust. Individuals are confused with terminology. An individual will partake in one or the other. They will partake in Christ's Resurrection type or the Resurrection for the Unjust. No place in Scripture does it say that those who enter into the Resurrection with Christ happen at the same time. When do those who are born during the Mill receive their Resurrection with Christ. There are waves who will go into the Resurrection for the Just. The Bride first to partake. Second many from Israel, then those just at the end of the Mill. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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