Just How Close is the RAPTURE?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Sorry,  but it is not Daniel asking the question about the wonders, but one of the two (angels) standing on either side of the banks of river.   To which the man clothed in linen answered him, to which Daniel overheard and replied,  i don't understand. 

*[[Dan 12:6]] KJV* And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

 [I see that you are not taking my challenge to name one event that occurs after the 7th trumpet (in Revelation) when the dead are judged and rewarded: 

*[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the PROPHETS, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which DESTROY the earth.]

The reward to the saints and prophets follows AFTER the destruction of the earth,  not before. 

It is afterwards that Daniel asks HIS question about "THESE things [that he saw] " and the subsequent reply (from 'my Lord ') about the days, the end of which,  Daniel shall stand in his lot.   You are trying to look at things pointing forward relative to the sacrifices ceasing.   You are looking at the AoD as an event and not a thing.   It is quite evident from Matt 24 that the abomination precedes the great tribulation, 

*[[Mat 24:15]] KJV* When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)...

*[[Mat 24:21]] KJV* For THEN shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It is the great tribulation that causes the desolation,  and in essence,  the sacrifices to cease.   The abomination, precedes and causes the desolation,  and not the other way around. 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

Dan 12:⁸ And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Who is the I? None other than Daniel himself. 

[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the DEAD, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the PROPHETS, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which DESTROY the earth.]

Who is speaking? It is an angel telling of current events?  It is the 24 elders speaking. They are prophesying. 

"Them that fear" and "Should destroy" are the only two present tense verbs in the Greek. All the rest are Aorist Tense that show no tense at all.  But then, most of Daniel's verbs are Aorist.  However, it seems all through the book when something is mentioned, it takes place right then - IF it is something shown in the vision. But when it is when the 24 elders speak, it seems it is usually prophecy. 

For example:  "shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."  This is not something that happens right here, or the rest of the book would seem very silly - no people to fight at Armageddon, no goats for the judgment, etc.  Therefore, this is the 24 elders prophesying of future events. 

"the nations were angry" sounds past tense but remember, Aorist verbs so NO TIMING.  All we could write accurately in English would be "nations angry" but even that hints at present tense. 

"Thy wrath is come"  another aorist verb. But we know His wrath began at the 6th seal. 

"the time of the DEAD, that they should be JUDGED"   We can read ahead and see that the wicked dead will be judged after the 1000 years.  The members of the church will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ in heaven  - probably while the 70th week is going on in heaven. 

My point?  These verses are prophecy speaking of future events. They don't take place at the timing of chapter 11 - at the midpoint of the week. The rewards will not be passed out at the midpoint of the week: they will come at the beginning of the 1000 years. 

What we KNOW takes place at the midpoint is that the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus, the abomination takes place, those in Judea flee, and Michael takes Satan down.  Many people imaging a coming here. They are in error. 

The reward to the saints and prophets follows AFTER the destruction of the earth  Consider the parable of the Minas.  Their reward was to be chief over cities. I would agree, this reward will come after the entire 70th week.  But the Millennial Kingdom will be starting so the world will not be destroyed - yet. Well, let me rephrase: during the 70th week it was pretty much destroyed, and it was cleansed by fire! But God must redo it for the millennial kingdom.  Are we agreed here?

My timing comes straight from the word.  Jesus said "then shall be great tribulaiton".....after what? After the abomination. Paul tells us what this abomination will be: the man of sin (probably a Gentile - but if not certainly NOT the high priest) will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare that he is the God of the Jews.  He will pollute the temple and the daily sacrifices will cease. He will place there an image, probably of himself. It will be the abomination that Daniel wrote about and Jesus mentioned.  Rev. 12 tells us that Satan will firsts go after those that fled, but finding they are protected, will turn and go after the remnant of the church: those that love Jesus. It will be the start of GT.

Dan. 12:1 is at that period of time:

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
² And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Let's look at this passage. Daniel is talking about the very same time Jesus talked about: "then shall be great tribulation..."

This vision started in Daniel 10, so it would see "these things" would include chapter 11 and chapter 12 the first 3 verses. However, Daniel had just heard:  "when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."  If I heard those words, as a Hebrew, I would be alarmed. It must have seemed to Daniel that the end for His people was destruction!  God did not show Daniel that 1/3 of His people would survive. 

"You are trying to look at things pointing forward relative to the sacrifices ceasing.   You are looking at the AoD as an event and not a thing. "  I don't think so!  The angel had just said, "time, times and half of time" and when the power of the Hebrew people is completely shattered the end will come." He is most certainly speaking of the last half of the week. John covered this same time in Days, months and years - so God has given us this period of time 7 different times and in three different ways. It must be important!

It is my belief that the Old Testament saints will rise at the 7th vial that will end the week. It will cause the world's worse earthquake. It will include those whom God has declared righteous before the flood also. So Daniel will stand once again right after the 7th vial that ends the week.  I also believe they will be raptured to heaven just in time for the marriage and supper. 

It seems then that we are agreed on this timing. 

I do disagree in one point: the sacrifices MUST cease when the man of sin enters the temple. But then, when he turns into the Beast, and goes on a rampage, of course NO TIME to rededicate the temple so the sacrifices can resume. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That doesn't make any sense.  Truth is truth, and error is error, regardless of who says it.

You had written: "The pride of the cocksure compels them to double down on an error rather that admit it." OF COURSE you were not writing about yourself!  You must then have been suggesting the other writers were "the cocksure." 

My point was, only the person who is without error should make such a statement.  

The great problem here is PERCEIVED truth versus truth. Everyone thinks THEY have the "real" truth - but it is their perception. So of course they think everyone else only imagines they have truth.

Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:  " Interpreting apostasia as the rapture makes no sense in the context of what Paul is saying, as you've pointed out, which is why I've never given that view any serious consideration."

The truth is, you just don't understand Paul's intent there but you think you do.  Make no mistake, Paul's intent for "apostasia" is the one restraining being "taken out of the way."  Let's get to "where the rubber meets the road:" Do you agree with this statement? 

You and I disagree in many areas. In the end, we will soon know who has truth and who has perceived truth. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by iamlamad

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You had written: "The pride of the cocksure compels them to double down on an error rather that admit it." OF COURSE you were not writing about yourself!  You must then have been suggesting the other writers were "the cocksure." 

My point was, only the person who is without error should make such a statement.  

The great problem here is PERCEIVED truth versus truth. Everyone thinks THEY have the "real" truth - but it is their perception. So of course they think everyone else only imagines they have truth.

Here is a quote from one of your previous posts:  " Interpreting apostasia as the rapture makes no sense in the context of what Paul is saying, as you've pointed out, which is why I've never given that view any serious consideration."

The truth is, you just don't understand Paul's intent there but you think you do.  Make no mistake, Paul's intent for "apostasia" is the one restraining being "taken out of the way."  Let's get to "where the rubber meets the road:" Do you agree with this statement? 

You and I disagree in many areas. In the end, we will soon know who has truth and who has perceived truth. 

That was a general statement that was nothing more than a cautionary observation.  Take it or leave it.

Brother, I'm not going to argue over things that will work themselves out.  We're responsible for being ready, for worshiping God in spirit and truth, not arguing incessantly until the cows come home.  Feel free to believe whatever eschatology you want.  I honestly don't care and ultimately, it really doesn't matter.  What matters is that we stay awake and remain faithful regardless of what comes our way. 

When we get to heaven, and if you were actually correct, you can get up on the kitchen table and do your victory dance.  Until then, I'm content to let things unfold according to the will of God because arguing about it doesn't change a thing.

 

[n2thelight]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Dream on! Those of the church who are ready will escape what is coming. I am not worried either - but for a different reason. 

What's the dream?You just told me I can stay behind and get my head chopped off,so that's why you escaping,in other words are you afraid of death?

[n2thelight]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There are going to be a lot of people wondering why they were left behind. 

Gonna be a lot of people wondering why they aint gone nowhere.

I can handle being left behind, for as Christ says ,He is with me always ,how you gonna feel when you still here?Not gonna matter for at this time you will be deceived...

[n2thelight]

Do you understand why people will seek to kill themselves but can't?

[n2thelight]

Why do we need to put on the gospel armour if we not gonna be here?

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Do you understand this?

Yes we do this now ,but do you understand that he satan the devil will be here on earth,live and in person,standing where he ought not?

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

You see that verse by peace ,yet you all worried bout getting your heads chopped off.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

What evil day?The day satan comes pretending to be Christ!!!!

How ya'll not gonna be here ,when He just told you to be prepared?

 

 

 

 

[n2thelight]

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion , that they should a lie;"

Those not in Christ are already delusional

Christians will turn into whores ,that's the bottom line

 

[n2thelight]

Psalms 91:7 "A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand, But it shall not come nigh thee."

Do you all(rapturist)not understand this verse?

 

[n2thelight]

Do you all just think satan will just be going around killing people?How can he do that and claim to be God?