Last Trump vs The Seventh

[seeking the lost]

On 5/6/2018 at 6:05 AM, Diaste said:

So do you see the 7th trump and the last trump as the same? I mean the last trump from 1 Cor 15 and the 7th trump from Rev 11? I see them as the same trump. It's neat, simple and unforced. I like that.

Greetings Diaste:

Seventh is not equal to Last.  Notice the spelling is different.  Not only that the time is different and the events are different.  If you are looking for an early out such as a pre wrath rapture know that this is contrary to sound doctrine.

Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17: 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.  Jesus is praying for us to stay.

The pre-wrath pre-tribulation are contrary to the teaching of Jesus.  You may be aware of the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew 13:  24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.  Notice that the tares are gathered and burned first.  Never does Jesus advocate or teach that the wheat is gathered first.

The last trumpet is at the end of the thousand years it is accompanied by all the events of 1 Cor. 15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where isthy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Seventh is not equal to Last.  Notice the spelling is different.  Not only that the time is different and the events are different.  If you are looking for an early out such as a pre wrath rapture know that this is contrary to sound doctrine.

The seventh is the last if there are only 7. In this case the 7th is the last unless you can show another last trump associated with the coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect.

A gathering of believers before the wrath of God falls is the soundest of doctrines in all scripture. Our Father does not subject his children to His wrath. Chastisement, yes. Wrath, no.

7 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The last trumpet is at the end of the thousand years

Any scripture to prove a last trump at the end of the 1000 years? Not saying you're wrong, just not taking your word for it.

[Daniel 11:36]

There are two trumpets for the church .... the others are the 7 trumpets for the tribulation period

The 8th is for the gathering of Israel just after the tribulation period

[n2thelight]

5 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

There are two trumpets for the church .... the others are the 7 trumpets for the tribulation period

The 8th is for the gathering of Israel just after the tribulation period

Please show me the 8th trump

[Daniel 11:36]

This is the message is to the elect Israel and just after the days of the tribulation period [Matthew 24:31]

Edited May 15, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[inchrist]

On 10/05/2018 at 4:40 PM, seeking the lost said:

Greetings inchrist:

The time has come and the progression is sure but the resurrection has not come and will not come until the end of the thousand years.  I see the first resurrection identified as happening at the end of the tribulation and at the beginning of the thousand years (Rev 20:4-6).  

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

that's the beginning of the Christ 1000 year reign

[seeking the lost]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

that's the beginning of the Christ 1000 year reign

Greetings inchrist,

That is very interesting.  What you are saying is that the seven bowls happen during the 1000 year reign.  Is that correct?

[inchrist]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings inchrist,

That is very interesting.  What you are saying is that the seven bowls happen during the 1000 year reign.  Is that correct?

Yes 

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years

Daniel 7:18 ►

 

New International Version
But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.'

Rev 11:18

The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—

 

[seeking the lost]

On 5/12/2018 at 11:55 AM, inchrist said:

Yes 

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years

Daniel 7:18 ►

 

New International Version
But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.'

Rev 11:18

The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—

 

The words that you quote are accurate and true.  The only problem that I have is the timing of these events  and what comes after.

The thousand year reign of Christ is characterized as a thousand years of peace.  The bowls of wrath are poured out after the seventh trumpet.  These are very sever and are not related to peace.  If the tribulation ended at the seventh trumpet and there were a resurrection there then it could be that the seventh trumpet is the last in a series of seven trumpets.

The first resurrection is at the beginning of the thousand years not somewhere in the last third of the tribulation.  In order to bring the resurrection to the seventh trumpet as you suggest it will be necessary to move the time of this resurrection from the end of the tribulation to the midst of the tribulation.  It will be necessary to borrow from the second resurrection in order to have a rapture that would follow your seventh trumpet.  The alternative is to add another resurrection and renumber the two that are given to us.  There will now be three resurrections at least.  Do you think that is a good idea?

You do understand that a proclamation is different than the actual event.  Revelation 11:18 is a proclamation of what is to take place.  John the Baptist proclaimed, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."  (John 1:29)  It will be three years before Jesus takes away the sins of the world in His work on the cross.

[inchrist]

15 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The thousand year reign of Christ is characterized as a thousand years of peace. 

No, there will eventually be peace but not in the beginning. It will take time for His kingdom to spread and His influence to affect every city in every nation.

Isaiah 9:7  There will be no end to the increase of His government
or of peace

In other words Christ government and peace will increase until it penetrates every institution.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people

Ps 2:9; 72:9-11

2:9 You will break them with an iron scepter; you will smash them like a potter’s jar!’” 72:9 Before him the coastlands will bow down,and his enemies will lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and the coastlands will offer gifts;the kings of Sheba and Seba will bring tribute.11 All kings will bow down to him;all nations will serve him.

Isaiah 11:4

11:4 He will treat the poor fairly, and make right decisions for the downtrodden of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and order the wicked to be executed.

Zechariah 14:17

And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain

Rev 2:27

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father

All this ties up with Christ very words in Luke 19:11-27 of the returning king, rewarding his servants and shattering his enemies in order to usher peace, it is a process to yield humanity to its knees to worship Christ.
 

If the tribulation ended at the seventh trumpet and there were a resurrection there then it could be that the seventh trumpet is the last in a series of seven trumpets

I don't see any other series of 7 trumpets in Revelation, that John and Paul would of refered to?

The first resurrection is at the beginning of the thousand years not somewhere in the last third of the tribulation. 

In order to bring the resurrection to the seventh trumpet as you suggest it will be necessary to move the time of this resurrection from the end of the tribulation to the midst of the tribulation

Rev 11 makes no mention of a midst/ middle of the tribulation

  You do understand that a proclamation is different than the actual event.  Revelation 11:18 is a proclamation of what is to take place.

Rev 11:18 is a fulfilment of proclamations.

Rev 10:7

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

Citing John 1:29 won't really strengthen your position:  who takes away the sin of the world.

"Takes away" is a Present Participle; Christ from that time of John's utterance all the way through to Christ crucifixion, Christ being in action of taking away the sins of the world.

In other words taking away the sins of the world was a process that eventually climaxed at the crucifixion