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The chronological order of end time events


Quasar93

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6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, with your confused hermenutic you have turned Paul's correction to the Thessalonian's into an incoherent mess. Your error is that you approached the text filtering all of it through your flawed pre-trib and faulty dispensational system.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Paul is talking about the parousia and our gathering unto Christ at that time

2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

He says before that day comes there will be a notable departure from the faith and the man of sin (the Beast) be revealed.

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The Beast will be revealed when he stands and sits in the temple shewing that he is God. Jesus spoke of this very thing in Matt 24:15 when he referenced Daniel's abomination of desolation. The revelation of the Beast takes place in the middle of the week after Satan is cast out of Heaven (Rev 12:12). It is at that time that Michael stands up and an unprecedented time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1).

2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had already taught them these truths.

2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul said that they already knew what was restraining the revelation of the Beast until it is time for him.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Paul says that Satan is already at work but is restrained until Michael stands aside in the middle. "The way" is translated from mesos, which means middle.

(See Michael's relationship to the middle of the week on this forum)

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Notice it is after the restrainer is removed that the Beast will be revealed. It is the same Beast that shall be vanquished after his 42 months are over. This will happen at the end of the week at the battle of Armageddon.

2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Beast will be empowered by Satan and he will be performing lying wonders and will deceive all those who received not the love of the truth.

Hallelujah

 

The very first verse in the passage in 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: ""...About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where all believers will meet the Lord together, in the clouds of the sky, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as 2 Thess.2:3, 7-8 clearly document.

The Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.10:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.  Jesus will then return, in His second coming/parousia, WITH HIS CHURCH in verse 14 

Let me see you try proving my "hermeneutics are confused!"

 

Quasar93

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21 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

2nd Thess 2:3 says:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

what is is saying there, in specific sequence is that the apostasy and revelation of the man of lawlessness comes first!

Now, there is something, referred to as "it" in that verse, that therefore happens after the revelation of the man of lawlessness, if Paul is to be believed. What is this "it"? We need to back up to see what Paul is referring to in the previous verses:

 1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 

You can make up any sequence you like, and believe what you imagine. However, Paul specified that the revealing of the man of lawlessness happens before the coming of our Lord, and our gathering together to Him, is that not the rapture?

In 2nd Thessalonians, Paul is calming their fears, apparently the Thessalonians had received some sort of letter supposedly coming from him that got them upset an worried (reading from the context). Paul reminds them that he had previously addressed all this, so they should not be shaken. What had Paul previously said? Well, following in one thing:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, the living Christians are caught up to be with the Lord, caught up together with the Christians who had already passed on, caught up together to be with Jesus when He descends from heaven, caught up to be with them in the clouds, meeting them in the air. Is this not also, a description of the rapture?

So, according to Paul, and he says it is according that we say this by the word of the Lord, that the dead in Christ, rise first, the living to not preceed the dead in Christ, so again, there is a specific sequence. So far we have noted that

1. the the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessless is revealed

2. and after that, the gathering of the dead in Christ

3. then the living Christians fo to join them all meeting Christ in the air.

This rules out the possibility that the rapture is pre-tribulation, unless the apostasy and revelation of the man of sin, is also pre-tribulation. So the question needs to be asked, are these events before the tribulation?

When the dead in Christ are raised, what do we know about that in sequence with other things, than might be helpful to understand. Dead people raised to life, is there a word for that? Like resurrection perhaps?

In Revelation 20, verse 5, we see the phrase:

"This is the first resurrection" 

What are there any details about that? Sure are! In Rev 20:4 we see these illuminating details:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now THAT is chronologically loaded! Full of relevant information.  There we see dead people in heaven.  We can see that they are there, because they were beheaded, so we know how they died. We also see why that happened to them:

because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God

Their testimony of Jesus, identifies them as Christians.

The fact that they would not worship the beast or his image, and that they had not received the mark on their hand or forehead, provides us the info to show that they were in the tribulation.

Now, what is still missing, is the timing of this resurrection, we do know that these people were in the tribulation first, and so these people are not raptured pre-trib, it is not possible.

Of course, there is nothing here that conflicts with what Jesus said, and Paul might have been referring to what Jesus said (like to his disciples in Matt 24) when he was pointing this things out. For example, Jesus said not to be deceived, and that He would return to gather the elect, using the same sort of language that Paul used (shout, angels, clouds, trumpet). The order that Jesus gave was pretty specific also, but He said this things happen "
immediately after the tribulation of those days".

If these dots are properly connected, then the sequence likely is:

1. The 70th week of Daniel begins

2. In that 7 year period, the man of lawlessnless is revealed

3. likely that is mid-week, and then the great tribulation of about 3-1/2 years (according to Jesus) is on

4. immediatey after that, the Sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall

5. then the Son of Man will appear in the sky and be seen by all, coming on the clouds

6. the dead in Christ will rise in the 1st resurrection and meet the Lord in the air

7. then we (Christians) who are alive at that time, will be raptured (post-tribulation) to join the dead in Christ, made alive again and we will be changed (1 Cor 15:51)

8. Then we shall always be with the Lord. 

Comfort one another with these words. It might be proper to call the rapture "the Blessed Hope", but I think Jesus is our Blessed Hope. I believe, that according to scripture, a pre-trib rapture is just a false hope, and not a blessing at all, just a big disappointment for those expecting it.

Remember, the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.  2 Tim 4

I have wondered, and asked before, if we think that the time of refreshing should be considered to be any time before the tribulation. Maybe you do not know what I am referring to. The idea comes from the book of Acts, chapter 3:

19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

A pre-trib rapture is a pleasant thought, but it is foreign to the pages of scripture. I am not saying that that are not verses and passages that people interpret to imply a pre-trib rapture, certainly there are. What I am saying, is that there is no verse or passage (that I have noticed anyway), which requires such an interpretation, nor specifies such a sequence. Of course, you are free to believe what you will, and ones belief on this topic, does not make one a heretic, nor a grounds for division.

See also:

http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html 

http://omegazine.com/eschatology/bibledoesnotsay.html

 

The Church is raptured BEFORE the Antichrist/man of lawlessness, is revealed, as the Scriptures clearly reveal, in the original translation of 2 Thess.2:1-8, as documented in the following.  The words, "apostasy," "falling away," and "rebellion," are alterations to verse 3, in 1611 A.D., from then Greek "apostasia" amd Latin "discessio, both of which meaning, "departure," or "to depart," for 16 centuries, and the first seven English translations of the Bible, before being altered, to mean something else.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

 

Quasar93

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53 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

What you said above is irrelevant, spiritually it is good for nothing. What is relevant and prevails is the Word of God, not your own words.  What the Word of God reveals about "to depart" or apostasy (i.e. abandon of faith) is written in 2Tim.4:v.3-4: 3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

And more: 1Tim.4:v.1-2 - 1 Now the Spirit speaketh EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and DOCTRINES of demons;  2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

The whole Earth is infested of apostasy spread by seducing spirits and by doctrines of demons, there are churches that are already dead because of this.

 

The Apostle Paul did not preach any pre-tribe, absolutely. The pre-trib satanic theory is a Devil's strategy to disarm believers for the battle that will take place now in this beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day (a Day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one Day. The fullness of Gentiles has already arrived.

The Most High and Almighty God has already ordained to cast down Satan in the bottomless pit, and to shut him up, and to set a seal upon him that he deceive the nations no more. This will happen through a great and strong war. Rev.12:v.9-11:

Re.12:9 And the great Dragon (a red Dragon, the own Satan incarnate) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Here goes where you can see and know who are the angels of Satan: 2Cor.11:v.13-15. They and a great multitude of unbelievers are at the left hand of the Lord JESUS and condemned to eternal perdition, and they are already and will be CURSED by the Lord JESUS as you can know through Mat.25:v.41)

Re.12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Re.12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It is not an awakening but a war movement against Satan and his armies, this is and will be a STRONG SPIRITUAL WAR, yes, a great spiritual war, in accord the prophetical message of JESUS in Revelation 16:v.13to16:
13 And I saw 
three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils 
(A SATANIC TRINITY), working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that (NOW IS: THIS GREAT DAY) Great Day of God Almighty.   (Yea, this Great Day of God has already arrived, that is the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ in which we are living or seventh and last Day, and Christ will come soon in accord His promise)
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue 
Armageddon.

 If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Furthermore, no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please Him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. (2 Ti. 2:v.4-5)

JESUS left very clear, saying: (Rev.2:26-29)
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.  

 

The following link of four posts with the Scriptural teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, in the first two, the chronological order of end time events, in the third, and a list of esteemed men of God from most every Christian teachings, who fully endorse the first three, in the fourth, fully refute your fictitious oracles.  Nothing could be more relevant thab that which I post!  Capiche?!  FYI, the teachins of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8, is specifically about the pre-trob rapture of the Church.  Let me see your attempt to prove otherwise!

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html

 

 

Quasar92

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4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The beginning of sorrows on Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the last 7 years. Matthew 24:1-6 is from Jesus time to 70 AD. Matthew 24:7-14 is the 2000 year church age which BIRTHS Jacobs Troubles thus the Birth Pangs reference. 

Your chart also has the first 3 seals as being a part of the 3 1/2 years of peace, so they don't fit. The First Seal RELEASES the Anti-Christ to go forth CONQUERING and to CONQUER. Also, what are you implying with the subtract 30-75 days? 

The Day of the Lord starts with the FIRST SEAL as a matter of fact all of the Judgments come forth from the FIRST SEAL, because the Trumpets are the 7TH SEAL, and the Vials or 3rd Woe comes from the 7th Trumpet so they also come forth from the SEVENTH SEAL. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation Man, the reason that we place the beginning of sorrows in the first half of the week is because Christ's description of that time parallels closely that which John sees at the opening of the first three seals. Remember, Jesus is answering the question about the sign of His coming, that is, what events will indicate the Lord's return is at hand. This lets us know that the general time He is referring to is that at the end of the age.

By the way, there is nothing peaceful about the first 3 1/2 years. That is an assumption forced into the week by the artificial pre-trib model for the rapture of the church. The 3 1/2 years that follow the confirming of the covenant with many will have conquest, war, pestilence, famine, earthquakes, and deception. (Rev 6:1-8; Matt 24:4-8) But nothing is said about it being unprecedented, we have seen these types of events since the fall.

After Satan is cast from Heaven in the middle of the week (Rev 12), he comes to the earth having great wrath (vs 12). At this time Michael will stand aside and an unprecedented time of trouble shall begin (Dan 12:1). Jesus calls this trouble or severe persecution, "great tribulation", and links its beginning to the abomination of desolation (Matt 25:15). The abomination of desolation is the defiling of the temple so as to make it unfit for sacrifice. Daniel says it happens in the midst of the week (Dan 9:27). It is the presence of the Beast and/or an image of him in the holy place that defiles it (Matt 24:15; 2Thes 2:3-4; Rev 13:14-15).

The "peace and safety" that is thought to be had by the Beast worshipers, comes after most of the Christians and Israelis are killed during the great tribulation in the first portion of the second half of the week. It is when it appears as though all believers will be extinguished from the earth that Christ returns, we are raptured, and sudden destruction falls upon our persecutors.

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The birth motif is a common one for that culture. It starts with the early birth pains that ultimately build in intensity over many weeks until there is a birth. In this allusion, Christ's arrival in the day of the Lord, is the birth and the pains begin with what John sees at the opening of the first seal. They steadily increase until Christ's arrival.

1) The first 3 1/2 years are the beginning of sorrows. (corresponds to seals 1-3)

2) Followed by the first part of the second half of the week which is great tribulation, Daniel calls an unprecedented time of trouble. It is the unparalleled persecution of the elect (church) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet and their followers. (corresponds to seals 4-5)

3) The second half of the week is also the time of Jacobs trouble, of which the emphasis is the persecution of Israel. It will last until the Beast is vanquished at the end of the week. (corresponds to seals 4-5)

4) Christ cuts the great tribulation short with His return to resurrect the dead, rapture the surviving saints, and pronounce His vengeance upon the earth dwellers. (corresponds to seal 6)

5) The last months or years of the second half of the week is the beginning of the day of the Lord in which the trumpet and vial judgements are poured out upon the earth dwellers and Christ destroys of the Beast and the armies that follow him at Armageddon. (corresponds to the 7th seal)

Revelation Man, you are wrong about the beginning of the day of the Lord. It is certain that God's vengeance will not be poured out until the first trumpet judgement.

Perhaps the best evidence for this is what John sees in Heaven when the fifth seal is opened. In reply to the cry of martyred saints under the alter concerning when their blood would be avenged, they are told that they would have to wait for a little season until their brethren and fellowservants are martyred as they were. It is an absolute that God's, day of the Lord, wrath is yet to be initiated at the opening of the fifth seal.

On top of that, at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign spoken of by Joel. Joel says that the cosmic sign must come before the day of the Lord. So, the day of the Lord cannot happen until after the opening of the sixth seal. In fact the fierce wrath of God doesn't begin until after 1/2 hour of silence at the blowing of the first trumpet (Rev 8).

So much for your unbiblical eschatological model. A right understanding of eschatology is not rocket science, it just requires reading the Holy Scriptures and believing what you read.

Concerning the 30 to 75 days, those numbers come from the difference between 1260 and the 1290 and 1335 found in Daniel 12:11-12. The implication of this is that not only does the Beast get 42 months from the middle of the week, but there also must be time left in the week after the Beast's destruction to fulfill the remaining conditions given in Dan 9:24. That means that the abomination of desolation (revelation of the Beast) doesn't happen in the precise 1260 day mark of the week but must rather be shifted to between thirty and seventy five days before that point.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

 

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22 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

2nd Thess 2:3 says:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

what is is saying there, in specific sequence is that the apostasy and revelation of the man of lawlessness comes first!

Now, there is something, referred to as "it" in that verse, that therefore happens after the revelation of the man of lawlessness, if Paul is to be believed. What is this "it"? We need to back up to see what Paul is referring to in the previous verses:

 1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 

You can make up any sequence you like, and believe what you imagine. However, Paul specified that the revealing of the man of lawlessness happens before the coming of our Lord, and our gathering together to Him, is that not the rapture?

In 2nd Thessalonians, Paul is calming their fears, apparently the Thessalonians had received some sort of letter supposedly coming from him that got them upset an worried (reading from the context). Paul reminds them that he had previously addressed all this, so they should not be shaken. What had Paul previously said? Well, following in one thing:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, the living Christians are caught up to be with the Lord, caught up together with the Christians who had already passed on, caught up together to be with Jesus when He descends from heaven, caught up to be with them in the clouds, meeting them in the air. Is this not also, a description of the rapture?

So, according to Paul, and he says it is according that we say this by the word of the Lord, that the dead in Christ, rise first, the living to not preceed the dead in Christ, so again, there is a specific sequence. So far we have noted that

1. the the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessless is revealed

2. and after that, the gathering of the dead in Christ

3. then the living Christians fo to join them all meeting Christ in the air.

This rules out the possibility that the rapture is pre-tribulation, unless the apostasy and revelation of the man of sin, is also pre-tribulation. So the question needs to be asked, are these events before the tribulation?

When the dead in Christ are raised, what do we know about that in sequence with other things, than might be helpful to understand. Dead people raised to life, is there a word for that? Like resurrection perhaps?

In Revelation 20, verse 5, we see the phrase:

"This is the first resurrection" 

What are there any details about that? Sure are! In Rev 20:4 we see these illuminating details:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now THAT is chronologically loaded! Full of relevant information.  There we see dead people in heaven.  We can see that they are there, because they were beheaded, so we know how they died. We also see why that happened to them:

because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God

Their testimony of Jesus, identifies them as Christians.

The fact that they would not worship the beast or his image, and that they had not received the mark on their hand or forehead, provides us the info to show that they were in the tribulation.

Now, what is still missing, is the timing of this resurrection, we do know that these people were in the tribulation first, and so these people are not raptured pre-trib, it is not possible.

Of course, there is nothing here that conflicts with what Jesus said, and Paul might have been referring to what Jesus said (like to his disciples in Matt 24) when he was pointing this things out. For example, Jesus said not to be deceived, and that He would return to gather the elect, using the same sort of language that Paul used (shout, angels, clouds, trumpet). The order that Jesus gave was pretty specific also, but He said this things happen "
immediately after the tribulation of those days".

If these dots are properly connected, then the sequence likely is:

1. The 70th week of Daniel begins

2. In that 7 year period, the man of lawlessnless is revealed

3. likely that is mid-week, and then the great tribulation of about 3-1/2 years (according to Jesus) is on

4. immediatey after that, the Sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall

5. then the Son of Man will appear in the sky and be seen by all, coming on the clouds

6. the dead in Christ will rise in the 1st resurrection and meet the Lord in the air

7. then we (Christians) who are alive at that time, will be raptured (post-tribulation) to join the dead in Christ, made alive again and we will be changed (1 Cor 15:51)

8. Then we shall always be with the Lord. 

Comfort one another with these words. It might be proper to call the rapture "the Blessed Hope", but I think Jesus is our Blessed Hope. I believe, that according to scripture, a pre-trib rapture is just a false hope, and not a blessing at all, just a big disappointment for those expecting it.

Remember, the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.  2 Tim 4

I have wondered, and asked before, if we think that the time of refreshing should be considered to be any time before the tribulation. Maybe you do not know what I am referring to. The idea comes from the book of Acts, chapter 3:

19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

A pre-trib rapture is a pleasant thought, but it is foreign to the pages of scripture. I am not saying that that are not verses and passages that people interpret to imply a pre-trib rapture, certainly there are. What I am saying, is that there is no verse or passage (that I have noticed anyway), which requires such an interpretation, nor specifies such a sequence. Of course, you are free to believe what you will, and ones belief on this topic, does not make one a heretic, nor a grounds for division.

See also:

http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html 

http://omegazine.com/eschatology/bibledoesnotsay.html

 

 

Jesus is revealed BEFORE the Antichrist is revealed and tribulation begins, as recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.  The Antichrist is revealed BEFORE Jesus second coming WITH HIS CHURCH in Dan.9:27 and Rev.6:2

In addition:  Jesis ministry in His first advent, was exclusively to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6.  The Church did not exist at that time, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven,

 

 

Quasar93

Edited by Quasar93
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"By the way, there is nothing peaceful about the first 3 1/2 years. That is an assumption forced into the week by the artificial pre-trib model for the rapture of the church. The 3 1/2 years that follow the confirming of the covenant with many will have conquest, war, pestilence, famine, earthquakes, and deception. (Rev 6:1-8; Matt 24:4-8) But nothing is said about it being unprecedented, we have seen these types of events since the fall"

 

True the first 3.5 years will not be peaceful .... and this is not forced into the week by a pre-tribulation rapture

It will not be peaceful 

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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On 4/16/2018 at 7:44 AM, Quasar93 said:

 

 

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

 
Quasar 93

Hi Quasar...

I've been doing some research on your list of English translations that say that 'apostasia' was rendered 'departure or departing'. Here are my findings....

SUNDAY, 10 JANUARY 2016

APOSTASIA: REBELLION OR RAPTURE? THOMAS ICE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE TRICKERY!

 
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.(Mark 9:42)
 
This post refutes Thomas Ice's noxious mistranslation of the Greek noun apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which he contends indicates the pre-tribulation rapture:
 
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together tohim, (episunagōgēs) we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion (apostasia) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.... (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)
 
Ice specifically cites seven early bible translations prior to the King James Version of 1611 that he claims render the noun apostasia as either "departure" or "departing" which he chooses to interpret as the rapture, a meaning which was not intended by the early translators. 
 
Ice: "The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608)."

The Bishops' Bible is an English translation of the Bible produced in 1568 under the authority the Church of England. It was substantially revised in 1572, and the 1602 edition was prescribed as the base text for the King James Bible that was completed in 1611.{1}

Bishops Bible: "2Th 2:3 Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for [the Lorde shall not come] excepte there come a fallyng away first, & that that man of sinne be reuealed, the sonne of perdition..... " {2} 
 
Wycliffe Bible: "2 Thessalonians 2:3 No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun." {3}
 
The Middle English word dissencioun” comes from the Old French "dissension" which is notphysical departure!{4}

Apostasia is translated "revolt" in the the Douay-Rheims Bible which was translated from the Latin Vulgate of Jerome (1582).

William Tyndale interpreted apostasia as a departure from the faith.. 
 
"sheweth that there shall be a departure from the faith....."
 
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion." {5}
 
Tyndale NT Commentary: "The necessary prelude to the coming of Christ is 'the rebellion'.... falling away hardly gives the force of apostasia..... In classical Greek, the word apostasia denoted a political or military rebellion; but in the Greek Old Testament we find it used of rebellion against God (e.g. Joshua xxii. 22), and this becomes the accepted biblical usage."{6}

The Original Geneva Footnotes

The Geneva Bible (Breeches Bible) includes marginal notes authored by John Calvin, John Knox, Miles Coverdale, and many other leaders of the Reformation.

The Second Epistle Of Paul To The Thessalonians:

"Lest the Thessalonians should think that Paul neglected them, because he went to other places, rather than come to them, he writeth unto them and exhorteth them to patience and other fruits of faith, neither to be moved with that vain opinion of such as taught that the coming of Christ was at hand, for as much as before that day there should be a falling away from the true religion, even by a great part of the world, and that Antichrist should reign in the Temple of God;"

2 Thessalonians 2: " 2 He sheweth that the day of the Lord shall not come, till there be a departure from the faith, and that the Antichrist be revealed, 8 whose destruction he setteth out, 15 and thereupon exhorteth to constancy." {7} 

It is interesting that Paul does not make a distinction between the rapture (episunagógé) and "the day of the Lord" in this passage. Paul had previously taught the Thessalonian church about the rapture, and this later letter appears to indicate that they were in need of further clarification. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
 
Ice: "What precisely does Paul mean when he says that 'the falling away' (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church."
 
 
 
 
 
The context of verses 1-3 themselves defy Ice's interpretation. Apostasia is historically interpreted as defection, desertion, rebellion, from the prefix apó, which is a departure from a previous standing.{8} Paul's use of the noun episunagógé in verse 1 defines the rapture. Paul also uses the verb harpazo (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4), but he never usesapostasia in this context! Ice switches "departure from the faith" with the rapture, he inserts the word "tribulation" which is not specifically mentioned in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, let alone verse 3, and then, as if by magic, the rapture precedes the tribulation! The false interpretation of "rapture" for "apostasia" is essential for the pre-tribulation rapture theory to hold water, whereas if we interpret "apostasia" as "rebellion", the meaning is plain! If we give Ice's interpretation credibility, we are left with the bizarre meaning that the rapture will not come unless the rapture comes first! His teaching is totally perverse! 
There are only two occurrences of apostasia in the New Testament, the other being in Acts 21:21: 

.....and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasian) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
 
I am not a "King James Only" adherent, but you would think that the forty seven scholars involved in interpreting the King James Bible between 1604 and 1616 would have arrived at the correct interpretation of this word, though clearly Ice thinks that he has carte blanche to redefine it!{9}
 
The root of apostasia is the verb aphistémi, meaning: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.{10} There are fourteen occurrences of aphistémi in the New Testament, and since this verb can mean physical departure as well as a departure from the faith (below), some have used the connection as a pretext to teach that apostasia means physical departure, i.e. the rapture. Ice's mentor, pre-tribulation rapture authority John Walvoord (1910-2002), once held this view, but he was humble/honest enough to change his mind after considering the lexical arguments of Robert Gundry.{11} Actually Walvoord admitted that no single verse of scripture by itself clearly teaches the pre-tribulation rapture.{11}
 
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from (aphistémi) the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (1 Timothy 4:1) 
 
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away (aphistémi) from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)
 
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), crazed cult leader, founder of the Exclusive Brethren and "god" of  the Pre-Trib Rapture Center (PTRC) and the PWMI, is falsely credited with"discovering" the pre-tribulation rapture by Ice and his associates. Yet even the "mighty" Darby translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as the apostasy..
 
Darby Bible Translation: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;" {12}
 
Darby: "With nominal Christians this has necessarily the character of apostacy, or at least it is connected with this apostacy, and is consequent upon it; as Verse 3 (Th2 2:3) teaches us, the apostacy takes place, and then the man of sin is revealed." {13}
 
Erasmus: "signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy." {14}
 
John Wesley:  2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first.{15}
 
More recently, Christian Apologist and pretribulationist Dave Hunt (1926-2013), interpreted apostasia as the apostasy: "Paul says that the apostasy precedes the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess 2:3)." {16}
 
The scriptures do speak of the end time apostasy, and we should bear in mind that this is linked with false teachers who will mislead many believers and cause them to fall away. Critically, they often achieve this by redefining important passages of scripture by their own authority. Chillingly, the redefinition of scripture can be as subtle as reinventing just one word in one verse! (Genesis 3:1; 2 Corinthians 11:3)
 
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. (Matthew 24:4-5, 9-13, 24)
 
 
But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. (Jude 17-19)
 
Needless to say, Ice has failed Joe Schimmel's challenge/offer to collect $10,000 to produce a single verse or passage of scripture which clearly teaches that the rapture happens before the tribulation.{17}
 
You also asked me my qualifications:
 

1 Corinthians 1:25-29 King James Version (KJV)

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

John 14:26 New King James Version (NKJV)

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Sometimes God chooses the most unlikely person you can imagine to do His work, someone totally un-gifted by nature. Into that person he pours his spiritual gifts so that there is absolutely no question that the work is of God. I was/am willing to be used.

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17 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

The very first verse in the passage in 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: ""...About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where all believers will meet the Lord together, in the clouds of the sky, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as 2 Thess.2:3, 7-8 clearly document.

The Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.10:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.  Jesus will then return, in His second coming/parousia, WITH HIS CHURCH in verse 14 

Let me see you try proving my "hermeneutics are confused!"

 

Quasar93

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, you and I agree that the "The very first verse in the passage in 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: ""...About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where all believers will meet the Lord together, in the clouds of the sky". Where you go wrong is when you add "BEFORE the tribulation begins". However, there is a since that your wording could be considered correct. But, only so, if by "tribulation" you mean the "tribulation" referred to in 2Thes 1:6.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The tribulation spoken of there, is God's wrath poured out in the day of the Lord against the Beast worshipers who had been persecuting the church. That tribulation is fundamentally different than the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. The great tribulation is the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. As Paul says the church will find rest from persecution, even the most extreme form of it, "great tribulation", when Christ comes and pours out His vengeance upon the persecutors of the church and Israel.

Concerning the time that the church is safely before the throne in Heaven while God's wrath is poured out. This takes place after great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return in the latter portion of the week (Matt 24:29-31).

Also you are confused into thinking that there is two comings of Christ in the future, when there is only one parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of Christ yet to come.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

Each of these refer to the arrival of Christ at His second coming. He comes the second time to stay (this doesn't mean He will be on the earth right away, but He will be actively engaged in avenging the murders of His own, through the trumpet, and vial judgements). There will not be a third parousia. It is important to note that His second coming is much more than His arrival, as spectacular as that will be. At His parousia:

  • He will be revealed to all,
  • He will resurrect the dead in Christ and change the living believer.
  • He will send angels to catch up the survivors together with the resurrected saints to be with Him in the clouds.
  • He will escort us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne.
  • He will cause the 144,000 to be sealed for protection while remaining upon the earth through the pouring out of His wrath.
  • He will begin the salvos of His wrath after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven when the first trumpet is blown.
  • While the earth dwellers face His wrath we will stand before the bema seat in Heaven to be Judged
  • etc

Much like Christ's first coming was more than His conception or birth, so also, His second coming will be comprehensive. The problem is that you have Him arriving twice, once secretly and also in the end week for all to see. What you fail to see is that Revelation 19 is not depicting His arrival but His action against the Beast and the armies which follow him at the end of the week. The truth is that He only arrives once for all to see (Rev 1:7, 1 Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:29-31). The Beast worshipers who had been persecuting the saints unto death will hide at His revelation (Rev 6:12-17). However, the persecuted saints that survive to that time will have our heads up and be looking for Him when the cosmic sign and great earthquake portends His arrival (Luke 21:28).

Instead of setting the saints at ease, you should be warning them, like Jesus did, concerning the great persecution that will come upon the last generation of His elect, the church and Israel.

Hallelujah

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"The pre-trib satanic theory is a Devil's strategy"

 

That is what you think .... you re dead wrong

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5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar...

I've been doing some research on your list of English translations that say that 'apostasia' was rendered 'departure or departing'. Here are my findings....

SUNDAY, 10 JANUARY 2016

APOSTASIA: REBELLION OR RAPTURE? THOMAS ICE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE TRICKERY!

 
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.(Mark 9:42)
 
This post refutes Thomas Ice's noxious mistranslation of the Greek noun apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which he contends indicates the pre-tribulation rapture:
 
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together tohim, (episunagōgēs) we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion (apostasia) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.... (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)
 
Ice specifically cites seven early bible translations prior to the King James Version of 1611 that he claims render the noun apostasia as either "departure" or "departing" which he chooses to interpret as the rapture, a meaning which was not intended by the early translators. 
 
Ice: "The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608)."

The Bishops' Bible is an English translation of the Bible produced in 1568 under the authority the Church of England. It was substantially revised in 1572, and the 1602 edition was prescribed as the base text for the King James Bible that was completed in 1611.{1}

Bishops Bible: "2Th 2:3 Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for [the Lorde shall not come] excepte there come a fallyng away first, & that that man of sinne be reuealed, the sonne of perdition..... " {2} 
 
Wycliffe Bible: "2 Thessalonians 2:3 No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun." {3}
 
The Middle English word dissencioun” comes from the Old French "dissension" which is notphysical departure!{4}

Apostasia is translated "revolt" in the the Douay-Rheims Bible which was translated from the Latin Vulgate of Jerome (1582).

William Tyndale interpreted apostasia as a departure from the faith.. 
 
"sheweth that there shall be a departure from the faith....."
 
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion." {5}
 
Tyndale NT Commentary: "The necessary prelude to the coming of Christ is 'the rebellion'.... falling away hardly gives the force of apostasia..... In classical Greek, the word apostasia denoted a political or military rebellion; but in the Greek Old Testament we find it used of rebellion against God (e.g. Joshua xxii. 22), and this becomes the accepted biblical usage."{6}

The Original Geneva Footnotes

The Geneva Bible (Breeches Bible) includes marginal notes authored by John Calvin, John Knox, Miles Coverdale, and many other leaders of the Reformation.

The Second Epistle Of Paul To The Thessalonians:

"Lest the Thessalonians should think that Paul neglected them, because he went to other places, rather than come to them, he writeth unto them and exhorteth them to patience and other fruits of faith, neither to be moved with that vain opinion of such as taught that the coming of Christ was at hand, for as much as before that day there should be a falling away from the true religion, even by a great part of the world, and that Antichrist should reign in the Temple of God;"

2 Thessalonians 2: " 2 He sheweth that the day of the Lord shall not come, till there be a departure from the faith, and that the Antichrist be revealed, 8 whose destruction he setteth out, 15 and thereupon exhorteth to constancy." {7} 

It is interesting that Paul does not make a distinction between the rapture (episunagógé) and "the day of the Lord" in this passage. Paul had previously taught the Thessalonian church about the rapture, and this later letter appears to indicate that they were in need of further clarification. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
 
Ice: "What precisely does Paul mean when he says that 'the falling away' (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church."
 
 
 
 
 
The context of verses 1-3 themselves defy Ice's interpretation. Apostasia is historically interpreted as defection, desertion, rebellion, from the prefix apó, which is a departure from a previous standing.{8} Paul's use of the noun episunagógé in verse 1 defines the rapture. Paul also uses the verb harpazo (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4), but he never usesapostasia in this context! Ice switches "departure from the faith" with the rapture, he inserts the word "tribulation" which is not specifically mentioned in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, let alone verse 3, and then, as if by magic, the rapture precedes the tribulation! The false interpretation of "rapture" for "apostasia" is essential for the pre-tribulation rapture theory to hold water, whereas if we interpret "apostasia" as "rebellion", the meaning is plain! If we give Ice's interpretation credibility, we are left with the bizarre meaning that the rapture will not come unless the rapture comes first! His teaching is totally perverse! 
There are only two occurrences of apostasia in the New Testament, the other being in Acts 21:21: 

.....and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasian) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
 
I am not a "King James Only" adherent, but you would think that the forty seven scholars involved in interpreting the King James Bible between 1604 and 1616 would have arrived at the correct interpretation of this word, though clearly Ice thinks that he has carte blanche to redefine it!{9}
 
The root of apostasia is the verb aphistémi, meaning: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.{10} There are fourteen occurrences of aphistémi in the New Testament, and since this verb can mean physical departure as well as a departure from the faith (below), some have used the connection as a pretext to teach that apostasia means physical departure, i.e. the rapture. Ice's mentor, pre-tribulation rapture authority John Walvoord (1910-2002), once held this view, but he was humble/honest enough to change his mind after considering the lexical arguments of Robert Gundry.{11} Actually Walvoord admitted that no single verse of scripture by itself clearly teaches the pre-tribulation rapture.{11}
 
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from (aphistémi) the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (1 Timothy 4:1) 
 
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away (aphistémi) from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)
 
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), crazed cult leader, founder of the Exclusive Brethren and "god" of  the Pre-Trib Rapture Center (PTRC) and the PWMI, is falsely credited with"discovering" the pre-tribulation rapture by Ice and his associates. Yet even the "mighty" Darby translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as the apostasy..
 
Darby Bible Translation: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;" {12}
 
Darby: "With nominal Christians this has necessarily the character of apostacy, or at least it is connected with this apostacy, and is consequent upon it; as Verse 3 (Th2 2:3) teaches us, the apostacy takes place, and then the man of sin is revealed." {13}
 
Erasmus: "signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy." {14}
 
John Wesley:  2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first.{15}
 
More recently, Christian Apologist and pretribulationist Dave Hunt (1926-2013), interpreted apostasia as the apostasy: "Paul says that the apostasy precedes the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess 2:3)." {16}
 
The scriptures do speak of the end time apostasy, and we should bear in mind that this is linked with false teachers who will mislead many believers and cause them to fall away. Critically, they often achieve this by redefining important passages of scripture by their own authority. Chillingly, the redefinition of scripture can be as subtle as reinventing just one word in one verse! (Genesis 3:1; 2 Corinthians 11:3)
 
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. (Matthew 24:4-5, 9-13, 24)
 
 
But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. (Jude 17-19)
 
Needless to say, Ice has failed Joe Schimmel's challenge/offer to collect $10,000 to produce a single verse or passage of scripture which clearly teaches that the rapture happens before the tribulation.{17}
 
You also asked me my qualifications:
 

1 Corinthians 1:25-29 King James Version (KJV)

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

John 14:26 New King James Version (NKJV)

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Sometimes God chooses the most unlikely person you can imagine to do His work, someone totally un-gifted by nature. Into that person he pours his spiritual gifts so that there is absolutely no question that the work is of God. I was/am willing to be used.

 

Greetings Joe Canada,

The first verse in the 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him..."  Is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, those of us who are left on earth alive at His coming will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air..."  1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 are both the teachings of Paul, about the pre-trib rapture o the Church.  The Scriptural passage in 2 Thess.2:3 pertains to a departure of the Church, as documented in the translation history of it.  Which Jerome translated from the Greek Septuagint around 320 A.D., to the Latin word, discessio. into the Latin Vulgate, which also means, departure, or to depart.  The research and report by Thomas Ice, PhD, is from the historic records, not some invention of his own, as vicious opponents would have others believe.

Review the following historical translation facts, whci dr. Ice had to researcch as far back in Christian history as the 12th century:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. rendered apostasia with the Latin word 'discessio,' meaning 'departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7:
 "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way," in perfect harmony with "departure," in verse 3.

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in verse 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8

 

 

Quasar93.
 

Edited by Quasar93
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