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Mike Mclees

Two trbulations and the truth about them

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32 minutes ago, JoeChan82 said:

I see what you are saying about horns and trumpets.  I'm not calling that into question at all.  You said the trumpets were for the land of Israel only. I say that a simple reading of the description of the results of the 7 trumpets in Revelation leave no doubt that the whole world is affected, not merely the land of Israel.  

I don't disagree that the whole world will be affected by the trumpet judgments.   But it's purposes will ultimately be to prepare the kingdom for his reign.   

With the focus on the land,  the kingdom of Israel,  I want you to see that the focus is also on the people of Israel.   A rereading of Ezekiel 4 and 5 would be helpful to what I'm about to show you. 

The third part of men that are killed with the 6th trumpet is referring to the 1/3 found in Ezekiel 5 that are killed round about the city,  and not in the city.   The "rest of the men... that repented not of their deeds", found in Rev. 9:20-21 is referring to the 1/3 that does within the city as a result of famine and pestilence... because they so not flee when the other third does at the 6th trumpet.   The purpose of the 5th trumpet is to force everyone out of Jerusalem.   It takes 5 months because that is how long it will take to run everyone out or to die of the famine.   See Ezekiel 4 and the 40 days of famine.  This follows the 390 day siege.   1 hr,1 day, 1 month,  and 1 (lunar)  year equals less than 1 week shy of 390 days.   The 6th trumpet slaughter will last only a few days as they flee,  bringing it to 390 days to when the siege ends.   The 7 trumpets are actually blown in conjunction with the 7 Sabbaths of the feast of weeks leading up to Pentecost.   The 7th one sounds at Pentecost.   The 5th one blows two weeks before Pentecost.   Add 5 months and you get the end of the Feast of Tabernacles in the 7th month,  22nd day. 

Gotta go. 

Blessings

The PuP 

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15 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I don't disagree that the whole world will be affected by the trumpet judgments.   But it's purposes will ultimately be to prepare the kingdom for his reign.   

With the focus on the land,  the kingdom of Israel,  I want you to see that the focus is also on the people of Israel.   A rereading of Ezekiel 4 and 5 would be helpful to what I'm about to show you. 

I see what you are saying.  We're not as far apart as I first thought. I have seen some far fetched theories floated in these forums, so thank you for the clarification. 

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1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

It appears that you are conflating "persecution" with what we refer to as the Tribulation period.   Persecution  has always been with the Church and you can refer to that as "tribulation"  but it is important to mistake tribulation with THE Tribulation, that will make persecution look like a walk in the park. 

And I don't recall anyone saying that those who are believers during the Tribulation period are "second rate."   That appears to be a value that you assign to those you disagree with and that is really not fair.

They will not be part of the "church age"  but they will be just as saved and loved by God as believers during the church age.   

I see you are still confused about tribulation being two thousand years since Pentecost , the great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 years  and the wrath of God. Three different evens in that order.  What the pre tribers say the last seven years is the tribulation period. This is confusion. After the temporary 7 yr peace there will be 3 1/2 yes of peace while the antichrist waits for the Temple to be rebuilt at which time he will use it to declare he is god. He will then set in motion the the mark of the beast to root out Christians and ll who refuse to honor him. That the long and the short of it. 

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10 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

I see you are still confused about tribulation being two thousand years since Pentecost , the great tribulation, the last 3 1/2 years  and the wrath of God. Three different evens in that order.  

No, I am not confused.  There are 2000 year of persecution or "tribulation" if you want to call it that,  the 7 year Tribulation of which, the latter 3 1/2 years make up the "Great Tribulation."  I understand that perfectly.

Quote

What the pre tribers say the last seven years is the tribulation period. This is confusion. After the temporary 7 yr peace there will be 3 1/2 yes of peace while the antichrist waits for the Temple to be rebuilt at which time he will use it to declare he is god. He will then set in motion the the mark of the beast to root out Christians and ll who refuse to honor him. That the long and the short of it. 

No, you're the one confused about what Pre-tribbers say.   We hold to a 3 1/2 year peace (first half of the Tribulation period) followed by 3 1/2 years of the Wrath of God (Great Tribulation).    The "mark" is part of the 1st 3 1/2 years as well as the rebuilt Temple.  

I don't think you have the Pre-trib position clearly framed in your mind.    

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5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I don't think you have the Pre-trib position clearly framed in your mind.

Let me take a shot at explaining the pre-trib position.  

Israel and the church are separate, therefore this present dispensation of grace (or church age) must be treated as a parenthetical age, meaning that the Old Testament prophets did not see it coming.  They viewed prophecy as if seeing from mountain top to mountain top, while missing the valley, which is the church age.  The 70th week of Daniel (The seven years of tribulation) cannot begin until the imminent return of Christ and the rapture of the church occur simultaneously, because God's focus will be shifted back on Israel. Therefore you get 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation to equal 7 years of tribulation.

How did I do?  

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13 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

Let me take a shot at explaining the pre-trib position.  
Israel and the church are separate, therefore this present dispensation of grace (or church age) must be treated as a parenthetical age, meaning that the Old Testament prophets did not see it coming. 

Yes, the prophets did not see the Church age.  It is what Paul called a mystery.   Don't know that I would use the word, "parenthetical," but yes the prophets did not see the Church. They saw the first and second coming and the millennium, but not Church.

Quote

 

They viewed prophecy as if seeing from mountain top to mountain top, while missing the valley, which is the church age.  The 70th week of Daniel (The seven years of tribulation) cannot begin until the imminent return of Christ and the rapture of the church occur simultaneously, because God's focus will be shifted back on Israel. Therefore you get 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation to equal 7 years of tribulation.

How did I do?  

 

The 70th week of Daniel doesn't begin with the rapture.  It begins with the peace treaty confirmed by the Antichrist.  When he confirms the treaty the 70th week begins and the AC breaks the treaty  31/2 years in and that is when the latter half of the 70th week begins, what we call "the wrath of God. 

The return of Jesus and the rapture are not simultaneous. 

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18 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

Let me take a shot at explaining the pre-trib position.  

Israel and the church are separate, therefore this present dispensation of grace (or church age) must be treated as a parenthetical age, meaning that the Old Testament prophets did not see it coming.  They viewed prophecy as if seeing from mountain top to mountain top, while missing the valley, which is the church age.  The 70th week of Daniel (The seven years of tribulation) cannot begin until the imminent return of Christ and the rapture of the church occur simultaneously, because God's focus will be shifted back on Israel. Therefore you get 3 1/2 years of tribulation and 3 1/2 years of great tribulation to equal 7 years of tribulation.

How did I do?  

 

18 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, I am not confused.  There are 2000 year of persecution or "tribulation" if you want to call it that,  the 7 year Tribulation of which, the latter 3 1/2 years make up the "Great Tribulation."  I understand that perfectly.

No, you're the one confused about what Pre-tribbers say.   We hold to a 3 1/2 year peace (first half of the Tribulation period) followed by 3 1/2 years of the Wrath of God (Great Tribulation).    The "mark" is part of the 1st 3 1/2 years as well as the rebuilt Temple.  

I don't think you have the Pre-trib position clearly framed in your mind.    

 

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9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The 70th week of Daniel doesn't begin with the rapture. 

I'm curious as to how much time lapses, in your view, between the pretrib rapture and the 70th week of Daniel?

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9 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'm curious as to how much time lapses, in your view, between the pretrib rapture and the 70th week of Daniel?

I don't know.  But it will likely not be terribly long. 

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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:59 AM, Diaste said:

Except that is exactly the kind of foolishness in which the pretrib doctrine engages. There are two sets of believers according to pretrib dogma: one set gathered before the last week begins, and another set which endure the wrath of God and are gathered sometime during the last week. Pretrib tells us there is an elite group of believers who are at this time perfected, righteous and holy and these will be taken out early so as not to endure what pretrib thinks is God's wrath. Then there is the other group, whom I have heard described on this forum as a lesser group, pushed aside because this group doesn't believe in the pretrib rapture, marginalized through what pretrib advocates seem to think is a closeted masochistic proclivity; e.g., a need to be punished to prove our worth, etc. Then of course this second, unbelieving, masochistic set must also be sadistic to the elite set, as I have heard it said on this forum the second set believe the brand new bride must be punished. Of course this is decried as outlandish as no good husband would ever do such a thing.

What we see in the behavior of the advocates of the pretrib doctrine is slanderous, prejudicial and bigoted speech. Is that any way for any believer, no matter the personal dogma, to behave? We should be bold as the lion, rock solid in our convictions, determined, unmovable, but prejudice and bigotry have no place in the heart and mind of any of us.

At any point in time I'm variously hurt, frustrated, sorrowful, given to tears, angry, dejected, etc., over this very subject, but in all that I hope I comport my self with dignity, integrity, honesty, patience, understanding, and truth. We all need to reflect on this as it's the love we are commanded to show to all others. While we may not agree on all things, fiercely defending our beliefs, it's not an opening for the worst behavior of which we are capable. 

 

Pretrib view never stated that. You guys watch too  much nonsense on youtube.

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