Revelation and the Study of Woe

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

These are not signs brother, these happen instantaneously and no one can hear them but those of us with the Holy Spirit. The bible clearly states the Rapture (coming of the Lord) can not be known, but the Second Coming is clearly know, there is a countdown. From the time the Beast Conquers Jerusalem he has exactly 1260 days to rule or 42 months. Each event is basically a countdown to Armageddon, 7 seal.....7 trumpets.....7 vials, everyone will see the 6th vial where the Beast gathers everyone unto Armageddon, who doesn't know Jesus is coming to meet them? Its just not a possibility that this event is the Rapture brother. This TRUMPET with a Loud voice means a reverberation. It like Whales hearing a call that only they can hear, we Christians will hear this call home and go forth to Heaven, just like Rev. 19 says. 

I know you're serious. That's not  good. So the voice of the archangel, a loud shout, and the trump of God are silent except for believers? Where is that in scripture? Tragically, you're skipping over a few things.

The dead in Christ and the living meet Jesus in the air in the clouds. It that invisible? I Thess 4 and Matt 24;

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

These are the same event. Along with this event the heavens are shaken and everyone sees Jesus return. How is that invisible? 

Where does the bible CLEARLY STATE the 'rapture' can not be known but the 2nd coming can be? 

"36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

 

[Revelation Man]

19 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

Do you believe the Saints that die in the tribulation are raptured also?  What happens to them?  How are they raptured after a pretrib rapture?  They died for Christ.  The dead in Christ are raptured first and then the living.   The Saints that die in tribulation should go before any living.

Well we are told exactly what happens to them brother. We are told they are given their White Robes (they died in Christ, but after the Rapture) and then told they must wait until their fellow brethren are killed in like manner as they were, MEANING, they must wait until the Beasts 42 Month reign of terror is finished. Thus we have to look to Rev. 20:4 to see the FATE of the Beheaded, like I said, we are told exactly what happens unto them. Satan is locked in the Bottomless Pit in Rev. 20:1-3 then this happens:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them (Bride sits in Judgment), and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus { SEE HERE, we are told exactly what happens to them AND WHEN }, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image (Can ONLY be Tribulation Saints who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast), neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So the Souls (Dead in Christ) who were Beheaded instead of taking the Mark of the Beast (meaning these can only be Tribulation Saints) and the they are Judged after the Battle of Armageddon. Then.......THEY LIVE AND REIGN WITH CHRIST 1000 YEARS ON EARTH........ I think they are the only ones who stay on earth with Jesus who have Glorified bodies, I think we (the Bride) go back to Heaven to help ready New Jerusalem, thus when it comes down 1000 some odd years later, the Church/Bride descends in The New Jerusalem and thus its called THE BRIDE. 

So in essence we are told brother, its all there we just have to dig it out, and heeding Men's Traditions makes it harder for us to see the obvious, I call it the Pharisee Complex, we see what we want to see because we have been conditioned to see certain things, but Gods truths are right there before us in most cases. If the Pharisees only new Jesus was God, but then again they couldn't see that, they had been conditioned to see a Conquering Hero, not a Suffering Servant, and ONE COMING, not two. But both comings were in the scriptures, they just chose to see one and not the other. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

I understand that you believe this. You offer many arguments. Problem is I can't just take this on your word. I doesn't matter what percentage of people believe a certain thing. It make no difference what any other individual or group says or does, it only matters that we act responsibly when it comes to scripture. But I do agree with you, it's frustrating sometimes. 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Sorry about the spelling, I felt awful until about an hour ago. There is no MY WORD brother, I offered scriptures. You seemingy just have your mind made up, Revelation chapter 19 doesn't even come into you equation do it? Most people who argue against the Pre Trib Rapture can't explain Rev. 19 so you side step it. Anyone that honestly reads Rev. 19 and doesn't see the Church in Heaven returning IMHO, is just not ever going to budge, I mean you see the obvious or you don't.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

And again, what's the scripture that equates the 1st seal, the whole week, half the week or GT, with God's wrath? I know you keep saying it and you are trying to be convincing, but why would I or anyone take your word for it? 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

There are many scriptures. Daniel 9:27 says the Anti-Christ reneges on his agreements in the Middle of the Week. Daniel 12 speaks about the Holy peoples being SCATTERED at the 1260. Jesus opens the First Seal and the Anti-Christ comes forth Conquering and to Conquer in Rev. ch. 6. In Matthew 24 the Jews are told by Jesus to Flee Judea when they see the AoD standing where it ought not. The AoD happens at the 1290, which happens 30 days before the 1260. Everyone is just not given the ability to see these things it seems. God calls some to Prophecy, and others not so much, its called being a body of one with different moving parts, some don't like hearing this, but they will never see it, they should be doing outreach to the homeless or something. We all have our different callings. 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rev 5:9-11 depicts the elders and the four living creatures singing a song. There are only 28 beings at this point singing a song of praise while holding vessels containing the prayers of the saints.  Fact is we are redeemed by the blood here on earth out of every people group. That we are God's kings and priests is another fact already in force while we are here on earth. To wit:

1 Peter 2:9, "9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation". We are already kings and priests.

Exodus 19:6, "...and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."(That's us, btw,)

This whole God's wrath thing goes further afield at an exponential rate. Now the last 2000 years is God's wrath? I think this pretrib obsession has got you firmly gripped in it's gnarly claws. Time to get out. Seriously, is that even reasonable? I don't think so.

Rev. 5:9 is the Church in Heaven, why play semantics as if the Elders would be there and not the Church? The Dead and the Living in Christ are all raised at the same time. Thus the "ELDERS" are raised at the same time, God is no respecter of men.

Rev. 4:1 is the Church being Raptured, John will be Raptured at the SAME TIME, thus he saw future events as they happened after he gets Raptured. Then we see the Church with White Raiment on:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment (BRIDE has already Married the Lamb BOOM); and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So you are trying to say the ELDERS of the Church are there but the Church IS NOT THERE? Get out !! Come on man. 

Rev. 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. (The CHURCH is in Heaven because there are ME IN HEAVEN)

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 

THE 24 ELDERS are not from every Nation, Kindred etc. they are Jews. The Church is in Heaven just before Jesus opens the First Seal, then we see them again when he Jews Flee to Judea (144,000) in Rev. ch 7, the Church that came out of the 2000 year Church Age Tribulation is seen, they were RAPTURED, you guys refuse to admit this is the Church Age Saints even though Jesus specifically tells the Beheaded under the Alter at the 5th Seal that they have to wait for their brothers to die as they did, yet you guys strain credulity by stating those in Rev. 7:9 are those Saints who were Beheaded and were under the Alter, which makes no sense since Jesus said they would have to wait until all their brothers were killed also, and Rev. 20:4 shows them being Judged after the Battle of Armageddon. Thus we see the Church is in Heaven having already Married the Lamb in Rev. 4 and 5 because the Elders have their White Robes on already. In Rev. 7:9 which happens just after Rev. 5:9 we see the Multitude that Married the Lamb with their White Robes on. 

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

These are the Raptured Saints who came out of the GREAT (2000 YEAR CHURCH AGE TRIBULATION) Tribulation. The BEHEADED are Judged in Rev. 20:4.

The Church are Raptured at the same time as the Elders, saying otherwise just makes zero sense brother. I think you strain at a gnat trying to be correct, even though you are wrong, and you will of course continue to do so. I just SMH to be honest. 

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

I know you're serious. That's not  good. So the voice of the archangel, a loud shout, and the trump of God are silent except for believers? Where is that in scripture? Tragically, you're skipping over a few things.

The dead in Christ and the living meet Jesus in the air in the clouds. It that invisible? I Thess 4 and Matt 24;

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

These are the same event. Along with this event the heavens are shaken and everyone sees Jesus return. How is that invisible? 

Where does the bible CLEARLY STATE the 'rapture' can not be known but the 2nd coming can be? 

"36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

You might want to study the root words as I have. It tells you there is a LOUD REVERBERATION. Believe it or not.  The Rapture is not the Second Coming, no matter how long you argue it you will never be correct on that. Of course that is why the vast majority of Christendom disagrees with you. 

Matthew 24:36-51 is THE RAPTURE, its a different event.  No use in us going on, you clearly have your mind made up, and the Holy Spirit tells me different. God Bless.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Daniel 11:36]

The Lord will come as a thief to take believers [both the dead and the living] .... only those who go will have this experience

No other human will see this happen, but will know that the living believers are gone .... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye

This is evident by [1st Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

He will then immediately bring His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world of humans [Revelation 6:12-17]

Only the 144000 of Israel will be protected and know what they are to do [Revelation 14:1-7]

Some will repent during His wrath and judgment and these will be saved just the same .... those who die will  be resurrected at the ending point of the tribulation period [Revelation 11:11-12; 14:12-13; 20:4]

They that sat upon the thrones are the pre-tribulation church

The rest are the tribulation saints who will be killed

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Sorry about the spelling, I felt awful until about an hour ago. There is no MY WORD, I offered scriptures. Youseeimingy just have your mind made up, Revelation 19 doesn't even come into you equation do it? Most people who argue against the Pre Trib Rapture can't explain Rev. 19 so you side step it. Anyone that honestly ready Rev. 19 and doesn't see the Church in Heaven returning IMHO, is just not ever going to budge, I mean you see the obvious or you don't.

I do believe we have gone over Rev 19 in the past.  In fact it's not obvious at all that it's the church returning with Jesus. Yes, we see the marriage supper invitation and the bride in heaven. But what in Rev 19 leads any of us to equate the bride with the armies of Rev 19:14? Nothing. The text says "armies", not saints, not bride, not church, ARMIES.

Strong's 4753

strateuma: an expedition, an army, a company of soldiers

Original Word: στράτευμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: strateuma
Phonetic Spelling: (strat'-yoo-mah)
Short Definition: an army
Definition: an army, detachment of troops.

Now how do you conclude this is the bride of Jesus when it's an army, and the text does not say bride, wife, church or saints in Rev 19:14? I know, it's the attire, isn't it. You think the only ones who wear such attire are the translated believers. Angels are clothed in the same manner. God's loyal angels are holy and righteous. Fine linen, white and clean adorns them as well.

John 20:11-13

... and she saw two angels in white sitting....

Acts 1:10

...two men in white clothing stood beside them.

Revelation 15:6

...They were dressed in clean, shining linen....

You seem to have a need to equate unrelated people and events. Why?

There are two distinct groups in Rev 19: the bride and a mounted army. The bride is preparing for marriage, the army is prepared for war. How are these even close to equivalent?

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

There are many scriptures. Daniel 9:27 says the Anti-Christ reneges on his agreements in the Middle of the Week. Daniel 12 speaks about the Holy peoples being SCATTERED at the 1260. Jesus opens the First Seal and the Anti-Christ comes forth Conquering and to Conquer in Rev. ch. 6. In Matthew 24 the Jews are told by Jesus to Flee Judea when they see the AoD standing where it ought not. The AoD happens at the 1290, which happens 30 days before the 1260. Everyone is just not given the ability to see these things it seems. God calls some to Prophecy, and others not so much, its called being a body of one with different moving parts, some don't like hearing this, but they will never see it, they should be doing out reach to he homeless or something. We all have our different callings. 

And yet none of the above shows scripture supporting the conclusion. It's just your assumptions. What you think. 

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 5:9 is the Church in Heaven, why play semantics as if the Elders would be there and not the Church? The Dead and the Living in Christ are all raised at the same time. Thus the "ELDERS" are raised at the same time, God is no respecter of men. Rev. 4:1 is the Church being Raptured, John will be Raptured at the SAME TIME, thus he saw future events as they happened after he gets Raptured. Then we see the Church with White Raiment on:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So you are trying to say the ELDERS of the Church are there but the Church IS NOT THERE? Get out !! Come on man. 

Rev. 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. ( The CHURCH is in Heaven because there are ME IN HEAVEN )

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 

THE 24 ELDERS are not from every Nation, Kindred etc. they are Jews. The Church is in Heaven just before Jesus open the First Seal, then we see them again when he Jews Flee to Judea (144,000) in Rev. ch 7, the Church that came out of the 2000 year Church Age Tribulation is seen, they were RAPTURED, you guys refuse to admit this is the Church Age Saints even though Jesus specifically tells the Beheaded under the Alter at the 5th Seal that they have to wait for their brothers to die as they did, yet you guys stain credulity by sating those in Rev. 7:9 are those Saints who were Beheaded and under the Alter, which makes no sense since Jesus said they would have to wait until all their brothers were killed also, and Rev. 20:4 shows them being Judged after the Battle of Armageddon. Thus we see the Church is in Heaven having already Married the Lamb in Rev. 4 because the Elders have the White Robes on already. In Rev. 7:9 which happens just after Rev. 5:9 we see the Multitude that Married the Lamb with their White Robes on. 

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

These are the Raptured Saints who cam out of the GREAT (2000 YEAR CHURCH AGE TRIBULATION) Tribulation. The BEHEADED are Judged in Rev. 20:4.

The Church are Raptured at the same time as the Elders, saying otherwise just makes zero sense brother. I think you strain at a gnat trying to be correct, even though you are wrong, and you will of course continue to do so. I just SMH to be honest. 

Nothing in scripture that I know of identifies the elders by affiliation to any group. Why do you make up a story about their identity?

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Lord will come as a thief to take believers [both the dead and the living]

The above quote shows why the pretrib doctrine is incorrect. Only those in darkness will be overtaken as a thief.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 

Only those in darkness will be surprised at the coming of the Lord. But not believers, we will NOT be overtaken as by a thief.

4 But ye, brethren,are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

[Brother Duke]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I think we (the Bride) go back to Heaven to help ready New Jerusalem, thus when it comes down 1000 some odd years later, the Church/Bride descends in The New Jerusalem and thus its called THE BRIDE. 

So you think Christ leaves his bride?    Who is with Christ and never leaves his side?

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Brother Duke

[Daniel 11:36]

The Lord will come as a thief to take believers [both the dead and the living] .... only those who go will have this experience

No other human will see this happen, but will know that the living believers are gone .... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye

This is evident by [1st Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

He will then immediately bring His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world of humans [Revelation 6:12-17]

 

Believe this Diaste and Duke .... your interpretations are both wrong

The Lord's coming at the end of the tribulation period is an entirely different matter .... and so is Duke's idea about the 144000 who are all Israelites 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Brother Duke]

10 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Lord's coming at the end of the tribulation period is an entirely different matter .... and so is Duke's idea about the 144000 who are all Israelites 

I believe the 144K are Israelites.  Are you disputing that they are with Christ when he comes back and that they are always with him after that?

[Daniel 11:36]

The 144000 are tribulation saints who take the vanguard at the helm during the coming tribulation period under the Lord's protection so that they are not harmed in any way 

These will be spreading the gospel of the kingdom that is coming .... the Lord's millennial kingdom

The Lord's church will be gone in the twinkling of an eye .... in a flash .... and then the 144000 of Israel will be the first humans to spread the gospel of the millennial kingdom to come

There is a difference between the 144000 and the Lord's church .... the church will be made immortal just before ... then the 144000 will be the first believers of the coming tribulation period 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Daniel 11:36