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Revelation Man

Daniel 11 & 12 historically explained step by step.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

That's fine, but how does one let go of the idea the diadochi divided the kingdom in the cardinal directions, and we are reminded of this at the beginning of this prophecy?

 

Where I think you get of course brother is yes, there were Four Kingdoms divided, but two pf the Kingdoms came to the fore eventually after the 301 BC Battle of Ipsus where the agree to divide the Kingdom. Thus the Seleucid Empire, even though it was actually "EAST" of all the other Dynasties, it was North of Egypt and thus was the King of the North Empire. Thus Egypt was the King of the South Empire, of Course Macedonia was the Northern most Kingdom, but the "PLAYERS" are the two most powerful via the region being spoken of, or the two most dominate at the time of any particular point of emphasis. 

So North, South, East and West are not relevant points as pertaining to the Kingdoms, it always about the Two most dominate powers of the Greek Kingdoms. It was always the Seleucid Empires vs. the Ptolemaic Empires (Egypt) no matter what lands came under their possessions etc. etc. Its was those two back and forth for decades. But the emphasis is still on the North and South, not on who they were per se. 

The last King to come out of one of the Four Generals Empires will be born in Greece, he will be an Assyrian, and he will thus be the King of the North because he is of the Fourth Beast (E.U.) and some King of the South will push at him, I don't see this as Egypt, because Daniel 11:43 says he Conquers Egypt, but in verse 40 hes already Conquered the KOTS, thus I think its going to be Turkey. God loves giving us riddles the World can not understand, but we can understand them if we quit looking through the worlds eyes at things. 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Does it not make sense to keep this in mind when assaying the prophecy? 

Egypt is identified as the KOTS. This is one of the areas of the diadochi. A simple solution would be to interpret the KOTN with one of the diadochi hence, Lysimachus and Asia Minor.

During the Syrian wars wasn't the KOTS in control of Syria? Not sure but I think that is the case.

Anyway, my understanding allows for the beast to come from one of the diadochi, and since only one of the diadochi ruled the same region with the same capital city as the three kings before him, the beast comes from the Mideast; and that would not allow for him to be king of the north.

Unless I'm wrong and he is called king of the north. But just repeating the same thing over and over is not convincing.

Part of the problem is the continued insistence on Rome as a player. This is not supported by scripture. I can't take prophetic interpretation serious if its Roman based.

These Kingdoms shapes kept changing as allegiances and alliances morphed via time. The main thing is to understand there is always a KOTN and a KOTS, it matters not who they are or where, God does those things, the last King of the North will be an Assyrian Turk, born in Greece, he will come to power via the Fourth Beasts old territory. The KOTS will be South of him, it matters not who it is, it is what it is. Its a TRUE PROPHECY, and God is discreet until the End of time. Gods ways are not our ways, you and others look at it like, well wouldn't God be consistent,  wouldn't God keep it the same etc. etc. Well.......NO........God doesn't want the world to know His secrets, He is true but wise, His people will figure it our but only in the END TIMES, (NOW) God is consistent, there is a KOTN and a KOTS always !! He doesn't want you to know who it is until end times are upon us. 

All of these "NORM" are not Gods ways. 

Everyone I know understands Rome is the Fourth Beast, only those who insist on an Islamic Beast come with this idea. I don't know what else to say to be honest, Daniel chapter 7 clearly tells us its the Fourth Beast. Islam are backwards people with no power, they couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack. 

 

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"Islam are backwards people with no power, they couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack."

 

The beast has the power and Islamic nations will follow him .... your "Roman" idea is not feasible

  

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1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Islam are backwards people with no power, they couldn't fight their way out of a paper sack."

 

The beast has the power and Islamic nations will follow him .... your "Roman" idea is not feasible

  

1. The bible says different.

2. See my above post All the Islamic Nations in the world COMBINED would be whipped in 5 minutes.

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Posted (edited)

Sorry, but you are wrong

Islam specifically will fight at Armageddon and loose [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 11:36-45]

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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Posted (edited)
On 6/16/2018 at 6:36 PM, Revelation Man said:

...

TRANSITION PERIOD

I think this three verse passage covers a 2000 some odd year stretch of time. It reaches from the Maccabean Revolt all the way unto the end times via verse 35 where it states even to the time of the end, which is a yet to be appointed time !! We see in verse 33 that many will understand but fall by the sword, flame, captivity, many days, this sounds like the early church Saints also, they understood, and thus Rome killed them in many violent ways, and when they fall they will be helped with a little help (Holy Spirit), but many will believe Satan's lies (flatteries). Verse 35 keeps up the 2000 year journey unto the end times, many will fall, be purged, made white (Jesus' blood) EVEN TO THE END TIMES !! Which is yet for a future time to be APPOINTED !! Then we see the Anti-Christ starting in verse 36. I think verse 33 is the Maccabean Revolt, and maybe the early Christian Church, then verses 34 and 35 transition via the whole 2000 year Church Age unto the end time !! The transition is a little convoluting and confuses many, some think Antiochus Epiphanes is the character that runs from Daniel 11:21 all the way to verse 45, some think its the Anti-Christ character that runs from verse 21 all the way to verse 45. Both sides seemingly can't see the transition that I see in verses 33-35. Its there, we just have to look a little deeper, it thus is the transition period between the two characters. 

 

SEGMENTED HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVES 

It seems we need to look at this prophecy here in segments. A historical segment that has already been fulfilled (Dan. 11:1-35) and an eschatological segment where the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Of course when Daniel received this prophetic uttering none of it had basically come to pass, now all of it has come to pass except for Dan. 11:36-45 and Dan. 12:1-12. So, it seems after verse 35 we can say that we fast forward so to speak into eschatology. Although you might say we are at the utter end of verse 35, for the most part when the Rapture hits we will be at verse 36 via the Tribulation period. 

...

Shalom, Revelation Man.

You were doing fine until you got to the portion above. Then, you fumbled the ball. You're forgetting two other prominent figures in history: Caesar Augustus and Herod the Great. Both of these men were also important in the history of the Land and Dani'el's people, and both are predicted in Daniel 11.

Why is it so important that you READ INTO (eisegesis) the text some reference to the Beast (aka "Antichrist") when it's NOT THERE?

The truth is that the "end times" or the "times of the end" began with Yeshua`. Listen to what Peter said:

1 Peter 1:17-21 (KJV)

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times (Greek: ep' eschatou toon chronoon = "upon [the] last of-the times") for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

This is reflected in Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:23-28 (KJV)

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (Greek: epi sunteleia toon aioonoon = "upon [the] consummation of-the ages") hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And, the end times are not mentioned in Daniel 11 but in 12:1 and following:

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael (the one "who is like God") stand up, the great prince (Hebrew: haSar hagawdowl = "the-Prince the-high," as in Sar Shalom = "Prince of Peace") which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (Hebrew: `eet tsaaraah = "a-time of-trouble," same as in Jeremiah 30:7), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (Resurrection), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

Edited by Retrobyter
to add a little info

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

You were doing fine until you got to the portion above. Then, you fumbled the ball. You're forgetting two other prominent figures in history: Caesar Augustus and Herod the Great. Both of these men were also important in the history of the Land and Dani'el's people, and both are predicted in Daniel 11.

Well I was of course doing an exegesis on Daniel chapter 11 and the Greek Kingdoms via the KOTS vs. the KOTN and there is no proof that any Roman is a part of this discussion, as a matter of fact I see the jump ahead of 2000 years very plainly, we are shown Antiochus Epophanes, then on verses 33-35 we are clearly shown a transition unto the end times: 

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END: because it is yet for a time appointed.

So its very clear to me, we are given a prophetic uttering via Gabriel/Jesus, and we are given all the things IN GENERAL that happen between Antiochus Epiphanes death and the Anti-Christ who shows up at the End Times which is a time yet to be APPOINTED but is coming soon now for us. W see the Church Age Saints via them of UNDERSTANDING will FALL, it is to TRY THEM......TO PURGE THEM........TO MAKE THEM WHITE.......TO THE END OF TIME. Then of course the Rapture will happen and the Anti-Christ or King of the North, a man born in Greece/E.U. is at hand in verses 36-45.

So why should I interject that which is not there ? It seems we disagree and that is OK, but remember, it is my Exegesis, thus I have to go with my uderstanding brother, not yours, I am OK with you stating your opinion, nut I don't share it brother.

Rome is the Fourth Beast, it has nothing to do with the Greek Diadochi at all. It will however all tie in together at the end times, hes an Assyrian, born in Greece who comes to power in the E.U. (Fourth Beast). 

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Why is it so important that you READ INTO (eisegesis) the text some reference to the Beast (aka "Antichrist") when it's NOT THERE?

 

I am led by the Holy Spirit, not by my own spirit.  And 90 percent of Christendom sees the Anti-Christ in verses 36-45, it clearly POINTS towards END TIMES in verse 35, you just don't see it brother. 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The truth is that the "end times" or the "times of the end" began with Yeshua`. Listen to what Peter said:

1 Peter 1:17-21 (KJV)

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times (Greek: ep' eschatou toon chronoon = "upon [the] last of-the times") for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

For starters, Jesus told his Disciples that his return was imminent, then in Matthew he told them of the 70 AF Event and a 2000 year Church Age even though they did not understand how long to would be, so dividing from Adam to Mosses, from Moses to Jesus and from Jesus to the Second Coming we are on the LAST TIMES.you can divide things up in many ways. We were not in the END TIMES as per being close because we can use common sense and see we are still here 2000 years later, Jesus knew how long it would be in general, he chose not to tell for his own reasons. I don't really care why it was, God knows best. So if you divide the periods into 2000 year Sections, Paul was in the LAST TIMES. Its Semantics, you seem to want it to say END TIMES to try and prove a point, I look to the FACTS/SCRIPTURES to prove my points, not verbiage that can be seen in many different ways, I look to the scriptures that say he will be an Assyrian (Isaiah 10) born in Greece (Daniel 8), who comes to power in the E.U./Fourth Beast (Daniel 7) in the End Times. I don't worry about VAGUE PHRASES where I know Jesus was just trying to keep their hopes up via an imminent return. 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, the end times are not mentioned in Daniel 11 but in 12:1 and following:

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael (the one "who is like God") stand up, the great prince (Hebrew: haSar hagawdowl = "the-Prince the-high," as in Sar Shalom = "Prince of Peace") which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (Hebrew: `eet tsaaraah = "a-time of-trouble," same as in Jeremiah 30:7), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (Resurrection), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

I just showed you the END TIMES Mentioned in verse 35 !! 

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END: because it is yet for a time appointed

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"Rome is the Fourth Beast, it has nothing to do with the Greek Diadochi at all. It will however all tie in together at the end times, hes an Assyrian, born in Greece who comes to power in the E.U."

 

This is where you go astray .... Rome is not the fourth beast

Where does scripture tell that the antichrist is born in Greece and comes to power in the E.U.

Your end time story on this matter is false

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2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Rome is the Fourth Beast, it has nothing to do with the Greek Diadochi at all. It will however all tie in together at the end times, hes an Assyrian, born in Greece who comes to power in the E.U."

 

This is where you go astray .... Rome is not the fourth beast

Where does scripture tell that the antichrist is born in Greece and comes to power in the E.U.

Your end time story on this matter is false

The bible says it is. We have went over the numerous times and I am not going to change my understandings. 

Daniel 7 shows the Little Horn Arises out of the Fourth Beast.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

The Beast is cast into hell in Dan. 7:11, then in chapter 8 we see the same Little Horn via the Greek Kingdom.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

God is not giving us back to back "Little Horns" that are 2000 years apart.  Gabriel interprets: 

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter (1) time of their kingdom, when the transgressors (2) are come to the full, a king of fierce (3) countenance, and understanding (4) dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his (5) own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy (6) people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify (7) himself in his heart, and by peace shall (8) destroy MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince (9) of princes; but he shall be broken (10) without hand.

26 And the vision of the evening (11) and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

1.) Greece is still a Kingdom, Daniel 7:12 tells us......12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.......Meaning the Beast (Dan. 7:11) is cast into hell, but the other Beasts, lose their Dominion, but remain for a "Season and a Time" THUS Babylon was where Alexander the Great lived and died, Persia is IRAN TODAY.....GREECE is still a Nation as is ROME.....In the latter time of their Kingdom means TODAY !!

2.) Transgressors are come to the full, this one is easy, in verses 19 we see this.......19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be..............Gabriel tells Daniel that at the END OF THE INDIGNATION (Hebrew word for Indignation =  Za'am meaning Gods Fury at Sin) so the Indignation at sins is an END TIME EVENT, Gods Anger at sin has COME FULL !! Thus the Transgressors have COME FULL, the Bowls of Gods Wrath are overflowing !! A Fierce King arises at THIS TIME !!

3.) The Fierce King is of course the Anti-Christ, I would say murdering 2 billion or more people says you are a Fierce Person.

4.) The Anti-Christ of course understand Dark Sentences or Riddle and Conundrums, he is of Satan !!

5.) As Rev. 13 says, the Dragon gives him his SEAT & POWER. Thus his power is derived from the Dragon, of course.

6.) The Anti-Christ shall destroy the Holy Peoples, so says Daniel 12:7, and that is just what this man here does !!

7.) He of course claims to be God in the Temple and/or places an Image of himself in the Temple of God and DEMANDS Worship.

8.) Via PEACE shall he DESTROY MANY [Nations] and Conquers Israel also. 

9.) He comes against Jesus Christ (Prince of princes) via the END TIMES.

10.) Jesus defeats him WITHOUT HANDS, meaning by the Holy Spirit/WORD of his Mouth/Sword of his mouth, and that is just what the Mountain which CRUSHES THE STATUE in Daniel chapter 2 does, he defeats the World Leaders WITHOUT HANDS !! 

11.) You see the VISION in verse 26 is called the EVENING & the MORNING, thus its 1150 Evening and Mornings nor 2300 Days.

Its obviously the Little Horn in both Daniel chapters 7 and 8 are the EXACT SAME PERSON !! 

Likewise the person in Daniel 11:36-45 is the EXACT SAME PERSON.  As is the Assyrian in Isaiah chapter 10. 

Gods giving you all the clues you need here. All you got to do is quit denting chapter 8 is the LITTLE HORN, even though hes called the LITTLE HORN !!

Thus he HAS TO come out of TWO KINGDOMS at once. 

He comes out of the Fourth Beast AND out of one of the Four Greek Kingdoms at the END OF TIME.....Thus he has to arise out of BOTH at ONCE. He is Born in Greece, hes a Turk, and he will become the E.U. President. In Daniel 11 why do you think we are given the Grecian Histories of the Syrian Wars via the KOTS vs. the KOTN ? Because God wants us to know in the END TIMES, which ever power is led by the Grecian King who is TO THE UTMOST NORTH will be The Anti-Christ !! The Little Horn !! That will be the European Union, who has Greece in their Union, thus they are the ONLY NATION that can be where the KOTN is born, if Syria was in the E.U. or if Egypt was in the E.U. you guys might have a point, but you don't, because ONLY Greece is in the E.U. and the Little Horn MUST arise via the Fourth Beast (European Union). 

God Bless 

 

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Posted (edited)

I think your are very wrong with your idea about the little horn being a Turk born in Greece and becoming the E.U. president

You have made all of this up 

The little horn will be the antichrist driven by Abaddon who will come out of the abyss to rule again at the time of the end

This fallen angel went onto the abyss after his 5th rule through Antiochus IV and he will  be released to rule the Middle East during his 6th smaller and 7th larger kingdom during the 70th week decreed for Israel

There is nothing about end time prophecy recorded in scripture between the ending of the 5th and the beginning of the 6th and the 7th   

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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      In The Wars of the Jews book 6, chapter 4, Josephus tells us that many considered the temple a citadel for the Jews and an inspiration to continue rebelling against the Roman occupation. The fire had already been ordered against the gates of the temple, but Titus argued and verbally prevailed in regards to saving the temple.
      "But Titus said, that "although the Jews should get upon that holy house, and fight us thence, yet ought we not to revenge ourselves on things that are inanimate, instead of the men themselves;" and that he was not in any case for burning down so vast a work as that was, because this would be a mischief to the Romans themselves, as it would be an ornament to their government while it continued. So Fronto, and Alexander, and Cerealis grew bold upon that declaration, and agreed to the opinion of Titus. Then was this assembly dissolved, when Titus had given orders to the commanders that the rest of their forces should lie still; but that they should make use of such as were most courageous in this attack. So he commanded that the chosen men that were taken out of the cohorts should make their way through the ruins, and quench the fire."
      "Titus's retiring, the seditious lay still for a little while, and then attacked the Romans again, when those that guarded the holy house fought with those that quenched the fire that was burning the inner [court of the] temple; but these Romans put the Jews to flight, and proceeded as far as the holy house itself. At which time one of the soldiers, without staying for any orders, and without any concern or dread upon him at so great an undertaking, and being hurried on by a certain divine fury, snatched somewhat out of the materials that were on fire, and being lifted up by another soldier, he set fire to a golden window, through which there was a passage to the rooms that were round about the holy house, on the north side of it. As the flames went upward, the Jews made a great clamor, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered anything to restrain their force, since that holy house was perishing, for whose sake it was that they kept such a guard about it."
      Notice the reaction of Titus and ask yourself, does this look like someone bent on a complete destruction of the temple?
      "And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire, as he was resting himself in his tent after the last battle; whereupon he rose up in great haste, and, as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; after him followed all his commanders, and after them followed the several legions, in great astonishment; so there was a great clamor and tumult raised, as was natural upon the disorderly motion of so great an army. Then did Caesar, both by calling to the soldiers that were fighting, with a loud voice, and by giving a signal to them with his right hand, order them to quench the fire. But they did not hear what he said, though he spake so loud, having their ears already dimmed by a greater noise another way; nor did they attend to the signal he made with his hand neither, as still some of them were distracted with fighting, and others with passion. But as for the legions that came running thither, neither any persuasions nor any threatening could restrain their violence, but each one's own passion was his commander at this time;” I perceive this statement to be the most telling of them all, and it was said by Titus, the Roman general:
      “Moreover, do the Arabians and Syrians now, first of all, begin to govern themselves as they please, and to indulge their appetites in a foreign war, and then, out of their barbarity in murdering men, and out of their hatred to the Jews, get it ascribed to the Romans?"
      Titus’ fear was that the barbarity of these men would be ascribed to the Romans, and that is exactly what we do when we declare the fourth empire to be a revived Roman Empire. Do you not see that ascribing Rome to the fourth empire also takes our eyes off what could be the true evil of the last days, Islam?
      In recent years, I held the position that “the saints” were only those that were martyred during the seven-year period of God’s wrath, that we so foolishly call the tribulation. I did the very thing I despise, spewing out concepts as fact without checking my Bible adequately. Paul used the term saints throughout his writings, and that tends to dispel the idea that the saints are exclusive to the years of wrath. Several examples are Ephesians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Ephesians 6:8, and numerable others.
      The terminology saint immediately takes me to Revelation where we see things like the woman, drunken with the blood of the saints (Revelation 17:6). It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that the largest implication here is the martyred saints.
      However, there is something notable about John’s writings. He never used the term saints in speaking about the church outside of the Revelation; the majority of the time he calls them –little children and brethren. The feel is one of association and an understanding of the heart and character of God. Considering John’s beginnings in comparison to the end, it only makes sense that he would have God’s heart as he unfolds the Revelation, a time of nightmarish destruction and judgment. This time is not directed at “my little children.”
      I realize that I initiated this conversation with a portion of Daniel, not John, yet they talk about the same thing. This demonstrates the leading and direction of the Holy Spirit. We cannot discount that John’s recollection of Daniel’s prophecies may have played a role in John’s terminology.
      When you look at end times prophecy, there are only three people groups to consider: the Jews, the nations, and the church. While there can and will be some crossing over between the Jews and the church; at that point followers of Christ are considered a part of the church.
      Some will say that God gave up on the Jews. I do not think so. He has engraved their names and faces on the palms of his hands. You do not give up something that precious, especially after showing that level of commitment. God has a plan to drive the heart of the Jew, his chosen, back to himself. Unfortunately, there is much pain and suffering involved with that journey.
      In general, the Jews have rejected Jesus, the Messiah, and therefore subject themselves to the wrath that is coming.
      And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou had known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knew not the time of thy visitation. (Luke 19:41-44 KJV)
      The rejection of God by Israel is a common theme. An example of this is seen in the selection of Saul as king.
      And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. (1 Samuel 8:7 KJV)
      The nations could also be referred to as the Gentiles. Daniel referred to them as the people of the prince that shall come. Jesus, talking about the days of vengeance said,
      “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24 KJV)
      The church is the entire collection of believers comprising the body of Christ.
      And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:22-23 KJV)
      Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:15-18 KJV)
      In general, the church is excluded from the wrath, or vengeance, that is coming upon the earth.
      But God proves his love for us by this (James Moffatt), in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:8-9 KJV)
      “. you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and a real God and to wait for the coming of his Son from heaven — the Son whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who rescues us from the Wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 Moffatt NT)
      The church likes to hold itself in exclusivity, thinking that we are protected from tribulation. Look, Jesus guaranteed us three things:
      In this world, you will have tribulation. You will be hated by all men for my names’ sake. I will come again for you. Tribulation and Wrath/vengeance is two different things. Tribulation is non-stop and comes in many forms. It has nothing to do with your inability to buy a new propeller for the family ski boat. Get real, people in parts of the world where there is a heavy Muslim influence are being killed daily.
      If you lived under a constant threat of death, do you think you would feel as though you are being worn down, absolutely?
      Perhaps the Bible in Basic English translates it more appropriately. Daniel 7:25 (a) BBE “And he will say words against the Most High, attempting to put an end to the saints of the Most High;” It is clear that the intent is to kill the saints.
      And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time. (Daniel 7:25 LITV)
      Daniel 7:23 Declares what was to come, the fourth beast. If the fourth beast is Islam, then that was initiated over 600 years after Christ's death by Muhammad.
      Born approximately in 570 CE in the Arabian city of Mecca,[9][10] Muhammad was orphaned at an early age; he was raised under the care of his paternal uncle Abu Talib. After his childhood, Muhammad primarily worked as a merchant.[11] Occasionally he would retreat to a cave in the mountains for several nights of seclusion and prayer; later, at age 40, he reported at this spot,[9][12] that he was visited by Gabriel and received his first revelation from God. Three years after this event Muhammad started preaching these revelations publicly, proclaiming that "God is One", that complete "surrender" (lit. islām) to Him is the only way (dīn)[n 3] acceptable to God, and that he was a prophet and messenger of God, similar to other Islamic prophets.[13][14][15] (From Wikipedia.)
      Islam has operated under various caliphates since the death of Muhammad in 632 AD (BCE). While all of them caused the Middle Eastern world grief, the largest most powerful were the Ottoman Caliphate.
      Ottoman Caliphate (1453/1517–1924)
      At the end of October 1922, the Allies invited the nationalist and Ottoman governments to a conference at Lausanne, Switzerland, but Atatürk was determined that the nationalist government should be Turkey's sole representative. In November 1922, the Grand National Assembly separated the offices of sultan and caliph and abolished the former. The assembly further stated that the Ottoman regime had ceased to be the government of Turkey when the Allies seized the capital in 1920, in effect abolishing the Ottoman Empire. Excerpt from, the Ottomans.org
      Is it possible that believers have been under attack for eighteen hundred years, without a doubt!
      Pay attention to another aspect of Islam.
      “The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Ismailia, Egypt by Hassan al-Banna in March 1928 as an Islamist religious, political, and social movement.[1][2] The group spread to other Muslim countries but has its largest, or one of its largest, organizations in Egypt, where for many years it has been the largest, best-organized, and most disciplined political opposition force,[3][4][5] despite a succession of government crackdowns in 1948, 1954, 1965 after plots, or alleged plots, of assassination and overthrow were uncovered. Following the 2011 Revolution the group was legalized,[5] and in April 2011 it launched a civic political party called the Freedom and Justice Party (Egypt) to contest elections.” (Wikipedia)
      Notice that this is two years after the Caliphate was disbanded.
      “Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoirs from that period, confirm.[7] Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.[8]” (Wikipedia)
      The point to this is that Islam has been a destructive thorn in the flesh of those who do not comply for over 1800 years. Have they been a global threat throughout their history, no, but it took a global response to subdue them in 1922. I think we can agree that they are global now, and a greater threat than ever before. Aside from that, their prime directive is to kill the people of the book, which would be the Jew and the Christian. Have you noticed that they are making a serious dent in their goals?
      If you have watched the news the last couple of years, then you are aware of Christians that are being slaughtered in the mid-East and African nations. Perhaps you have also noticed that attacks against any group outside of Islam are fair game to them. Buddhists, Catholics, you name it. They even fight each other as though there is a competition to see who can follow the Qur’an most precisely. Unfortunately, for the outsider, while the Qur’an does have passages devoted to peace, they are superseded by newer passages that demand a strict and violent compliance.
      I think it is evident that there is affliction directed at Christians in certain parts of the world. Not to be left out of this violence against Christians is China and North Korea. I suppose the question is, how long until this level of violence comes to the Americas and afflicts us as well?
      Do not think that your non-belief will protect you. In general, Islam feels that any American is a Christ follower and worthy of death. Scripture tells me that you may have a chance to reject God and accept Allah as your God of choice, bowing before him in worship. Perhaps that will save your neck for the moment. I am aware that they cut a man’s head off anyway, possibly because they felt he was a coward with no backbone. I suspect it will not be as easy as that, and they may not have the time to await your decision. Of course, giving into this cuts you off from any hope of a relationship with God. In other words, there is no turning back from this decision.
      If you do not know this Jesus Christ, you can. Ask him into your life, and turn yourself over to him and accept his forgiveness. Allow him to run it. You do not have to work for your salvation, as it is free and paid for, you merely have to receive this life and salvation. You will experience a peace that you have never known before and a promise that he will come for you so that you can live with him in glory.
    • By Omegaman 3.0
      I have, for the most part, not commented on many of the passages we have read in our Bible readings. Part of this is because I am lazy, but part of it is also, because we have the Worthy Christian Forums where discussion already goes on, and it is a place where Many views are represented.
      When I set up the Bible 365 Club, one of the things I wanted to accomplish, was just to get people into God's word and read it, without the need for squabbling.
      Here in Daniel 12, I don't think it is proper for me, to not draw attention to some connections to the New Testament. Reading the Bible for the sake of reading it, is not to get it's full benefit, we want also to understand what we are reading.
      With that said, I am not attempting here, to use this as a soap box for my particular views, but I do think I have a responsibility to connect some of the dots, since some Bible 365 Club members may be encountering some verses and concepts for the first time.
      By providing some Bible passages outside of our reading assignments or schedule, we can broaden our understanding a little, and begin to make some of the connections that we can examine, and hopefully the Holy Spirit will aid our understanding.
      In Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus is speaking with His disciples about the time of the end. Those are good chapters to read to broaden our understanding about the things of the end. However, here we are in Daniel 12, so what are the connections I am alluding to?
      Quoting from Matt 24:15 (NIV in this case) Jesus said to His disciples:
      “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—"
      and in Mark 13:14 it reads:
      “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’a standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand— 
      These passages make reference to a coming abomination, and desolation, and the Matthew one tells us that this is spoken of in Daniel. In Daniel 12:11, here is a connection:
      11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."
      This is a perfect example of a principle of Bible study, comparing scripture with scripture. Here we have something in the Old Testament, that is difficult to understand, or at least might make us wonder. However, in the New Testament, we get some explanation and elaboration.
      Now, if you read the New Testament passages that I mentioned in Matt, Mark and Luke, you might well have more questions than answers, but at least you will understand with a little more detail, something about Daniel 12.
      Just to give you some more connections, more things to file in the back of you mind, allow me to point out some concepts or details to take note of, that will help you to make associations in other chapters of various books of the Bible.
      Not going to get into it deeply here, but notice in Dan 12:11, not only the abomination of desolation, but, the specific 1290 days. Be mindful of that number, and of numbers that the Bible is going to bring up from time to time, in the context of the end times.
      Examples, 1260 days, time, times, and half a time, 3 and a half, the week and the middle of the week.
      Also of interest in this connection, is the concept of "great tribulation". Jesus uses that description in Matt 24:
      21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
      In this case, the NIV says great distress. The word distress is the Greek word  "thlípsis". Many versions use the word "tribulation". It basically means pressure. To understand the word better, see http://biblehub.com/greek/2347.htm
      I do, however, want to make another connection, so we can again, see that Jesus and the book of Daniel, are referring to the same thing. Again, Jesus said in Matt 24:21
      "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."
      Notice that in this distress or tribulation, is unique, not having an equal previously, not in the future. How does Daniel describe this? From 12:1:
      “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then."
      It is also note-worthy, that Michael is mentioned. You probably know, that Michael is an archangel. That ties in to this (probably) if you look at 1 Thess 4:16, and comparing that verse or passage, with the Matt 24 one.
      I am not trying to send you down all sorts of side trails, but these things are all related. Going to stop at this point, and move along. Thanks for reading what I have said here, and especially for reading the Bible itself.
    • By Revelation Man
      So, looking forward, not from Johns perspective of the vision, why would the Euphrates need to be dried up in a modern world, where bridges exist and and the capability of crossing rivers with huge Armies was proven to be a somewhat easy chore in World War Two ? That is the logical question. And is the Army even an Army of men or is it an army of Angels/Saints ? Is this event symbolism of Israel/Judah being saved by Cyrus, the "anointed one" (Isaiah 45:1) a type of Christ/Messiah, via the drying up of the River Euphrates. 
      The deliverance from the Babylonian captivity as foreseen by Isaiah becomes in itself a prophetic picture of the deliverance of the spiritual Israel, God’s remnant people, with the conquering Cyrus (Christ) as the great Deliverer for whom they have waited. The designation of Cyrus as “my Anointed” in Isaiah 45:1 is significant for in the Hebrew it is “my Messiah” and the Greek form of course is “Christ”, both forms meaning “anointed”. This, with the designation ‘My Shepherd’ (48:28) also a messianic title, marks Cyrus as a type or symbol of Christ”. Isaiah 46 and 47 continues the prophecy of Cyrus (but also adds what can only be future events) but its all linked with the description of the destruction of Babylon. In Revelation 18, the pattern is repeated in almost identical fashion concerning end time spiritual Babylon.
      As concerning the Destruction of Babylon, in Daniel 5, they all drank wine out of the vessels of the temple of the Lord and praised and worshiped all of their false gods therein. (Gold, silver, brass, wood, stone) And the same hour the "finger/hand of God" wrote their destruction, "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin" meaning God has numbered thy Kingdom, and finished it, thy Kingdom has been weighed in the balances and found wanting, and thy Kingdom is laid waste and divided. So is Revelation 9 and the Drying up of the River Euphrates a symbolic gesture of a coming Salvation unto Israel/Judah ? A defeating of "Babylon" ? It would seem so. The "Thousand" mentioned in Rev. 9 is the Greek word MURIAS G3461 meaning (1) ten thousand (2) an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number (3) innumerable hosts ----From G3463; a ten thousand; by extension a "myriad" or indefinite number:—ten thousand.
      The 200 Million mentioned in Revelation 9:16. This number is expressed in the Greek as 'two myriads of myriads' or in numeric form, "two 10,000 of 10,000". There is no Hundred in the verse anywhere. I am pretty sure this means Two Myriads of people. Is this an Army of men of War attacking Israel, or an Army of Men/Saints/Angels delivering Israel ? In Revelation 9 a horde of Demons is loosed from the bottomless pit when the Fifth Angel sounds the Fifth trumpet, and is given the key to the bottomless pit. (Rev 9:1) Their "Breastplates were of Iron" but the Army of the Myriad or 2 thousand thousand, has Breastplates of What ? {breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, }  ( Two Myriads we must ask, could it be the Great Multitude and the 144,000 ? Just a thought. )  The breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue and sulfur yellow of the horsemen equate to the breastplate worn by the high priest. Exodus 28:15 You shall make the breastplate of judgment. Artistically woven according to the workmanship of the ephod you shall make it: of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine wove, linen, you shall make it.
       Only in this case all 200 million (or all of the Myriad or the innumerable number) are being presented as high priests. The power of these horsemen (fire, smoke and brimstone) comes from their mouths and their tails. { The mouth represents The Holy Spirit/Word of God, and the tails represent the venomous (9:19 their tails were like unto serpents) actions against mankind they have been given the power to bring forth.)
      Rev. 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
      19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
      20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
      21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
      So, these Myriads are placing plagues upon whom ? People that worshiped idols of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood (Just like Daniel 5 and the Judgment of Babylon) and they would not REPENT of their evil ways. This is Gods plagues, upon an evil mankind. The (200 Million ?) as they have been called are actually two Myriads of angels/men/saints or servants of God that are Judging mankind with plagues. Everyone has this backwards in my honest opinion. Where is this 200 Million pictured as coming against Israel ? The Kings of the East in Rev. 16 is a different event than the 200 million on Rev. 9, it is a Vial Judgment/event, not a Trumpet Judgment/event. I think it is the Kings of the East alright, but it is Persia ( Just like Daniel 5 ) Syria, Turkey and the hordes of Islamic Muslims, who might very well, not being a modern army, see the River Euphrates drying up, as a calling for them to attack Israel, these might actually travel across the River bed, and Turkey, who has a Dam that can block the water or Dry up the River might instigate this, more than likely it just dries up .
      Lot of what ifs here, but the main thrust of the matter is, the Kings of the East and the Two Hundred Million (or Myriad and Myriad) are not the same event, at all. One is a Trumpet and the other is a Vial. The fall of Babylon was the signal for the deliverance of the Jewish remnant from their long and languishing exile under their Babylonian conquerors. Under the Persian rule, the command for their release was given, first by Cyrus the conqueror of Babylon and then by the great kings who succeeded him. Revelation again speaks of the "drying of the River of the Euphrates. Once again this needs to be connected with the deliverance of God’s remnant from the persecuting oppression of last day Babylonian overlords. (Last Beast System) The sixth Vial (Kings of the East coming against Israel) is immediately followed by the seventh which relates to the destruction of Babylon, and the following two chapters of Revelation 17 and 18 are a prophetic enlargement of what is stated in brief in chapter 16.
      The drying up of Euphrates therefore must be taken in a prophetic sense, of the way being prepared for the final overthrow of the great Satanic oppression that has made the nations drunk with its wine. So attack and oppression is followed by deliverance. In Revelation 19 we see Christ, the KING of kings, riding forth with the armies (Saints and Angels) of heaven. They come to deliver God's remnant people (Israel and Christians who were left) and put an end to Babylon and the forces supporting Babylon.
      Ancient Babylon a city "most proud," with "a golden cup…that made all the earth drunken…of her wine." Jeremiah 50:32; 51:7. Has a remarkable link to last day Babylon in Revelation 17-18. (False Religion and Gov. without God at its head) Yet she was to fall suddenly and be destroyed (Jeremiah 51:8). Then God would call Israel, saying, "My people, go ye out of the midst of her." Jeremiah 51:45. These exact words are repeated in the book of Revelation to Israel about the importance of coming out of modern Babylon (Revelation 17:4, 5; 18:2-8).
      Jeremiah 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.
      50:31 Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.
      51:7 Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
      51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.
      Amazing !! This matches up with with God coming against Babylon the Great Harlot in 17 and with Babylon the Beast in Rev. 18. The Sixth trumpet begins with the mention of a voice coming from the golden altar before God. As this altar is also called the 'altar of incense', there is an implication that this 6th trumpet event occurs in answer to prayer, Rev 5:8. In the narrative of the 6th trumpet we have a clear historical reference back to when the Chaldeans crossed the Euphrates and defeated the house of Judah. Refer 2 Chronicles 36:15-20. In the book of Zephaniah, who lived in the days immediately prior to the Chaldean invasion the Day of the LORD is clearly described as a day of trouble for the land of Judah (note verses 1:4,7,10,12,14-15,18, 2:1-3). Other nations are later mentioned, but primary attention is given to the wrath directed upon Judah.  
      So, have I made a good case, am I crazy, or might I be on to something ? I been studying this a few weeks, this sprung up by accident from my studies on Babylon.  
      My first thread.........Have at it........God Bless.
       
    • By Tanner Brody
      "The king then gave orders, and they brought those men who had maliciously accused Daniel, and they cast them, their children and their wives into the lions’ den; and they had not reached the bottom of the den before the lions overpowered them and crushed all their bones."
      Sorry if this is a silly question (I'm a new Christian), but why slaughter the women and children? Are there elements of the bible that is not nessesarly condoned by God but just a recording of history?
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