The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's easy to imagine anything hence, pretrib. 

I think Lennon said something similar; "imagine there is no heaven, it's easy if you try...."

No thanks.

It is OK that  you wish to rearrange Revelation: it seems the thing to do these days. All I am saying is that you will end up being wrong.  John shows us where the 6th seal is. Before the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, ONE FINAL seal must be opened: then, and ONLY then can the book be opened to begin the trumpet judgments. Since the first 6 trumpet judgments will come in the first half of the week, that means the 6th seal is before the week begins. Believe it, for it is the truth of scripture.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, John was revealing a vision of the rapture scene and the 70th week of Daniel.

The dragon is the Antichrist system working through empires and kings on earth.

Rev 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

Rev 22:7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”

Rev 22:12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

God bless

Believe it or not: up to you. The truth is, John was called up to heaven while he was still alive - around 95 AD.  However, the first thing he saw was a vision of the past - looking into the throne room sometime before Christ rose from the dead.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

So, believers will suffer the wrath of God. In direct contradiction to the word of God.

Yep, the rebellion is here. 

 I will have no further interaction with you.

It is very plain and simple: those that are ready at the pretrib rapture will NOT suffer God's wrath. Those LEFT BEHIND WILL suffer God's wrath.  Will it be God's fault they suffer His wrath? No, because He wanted the entire planet to be born again, In Christ, and ready for His coming. 

You are inconsistent. God also said that He was not willing that ANY should perish. Do you then believe that all will be saved?

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yeah...at the 6th seal deep into the last week. You are in for a surprise if you think the 6th seal begins the last week.

Not true. You need to get your info straight. Below refutes your misguided attempt to justify your false and incoherent rambling. Apostasy is derived from aphistemi, which is a defection, a departure from a former standing. Apostasy is even stronger, revolt. 

 Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

You only know Paul's intent from what was written. When you divorce the context from the text or insert personal understanding of intent the truth will not surface.

Jesus will not come until after apostasy and the revealing. It is apostasy and the revealing that are the restrainer of the coming of Jesus and the one and only gathering.  You'll see. 

 

The revealing of the man of sin? So the man of sin is going to be tagging people all over the world during God's wrath? God's going to be destroying unbelievers while unbelievers are destroying God's people? Do you hear the words you speak?

Again comprehension is lost and logic suspended. The rebellion isn't guns and governments, its rebellion against the truth of the Lord, his salvation, his authority, and his sovereignty. God knows the rebellion, that is all that's necessary. 

You think the church restrains evil? Do you know how to think critically? Watch the news? Evil is growing every day. The church is doing a great job. 

 

You are incorrect. You'll see. Best get ready. 

People must dig DEEP to understand the Author in many scriptures. Peter said as much about Paul's writings.  Few will understand Paul in 2 thes. 2 with a cursory reading.  It takes STUDY.  

Pay attention and learn: the HOLY SPIRIT working through the church is the restrainer. Got it? When the church has departed, suddenly the Holy Spirit will have no people to work through, and the man of sin will then be revealed: the restrainer will then be "taken out of the way." Some people just want to pull verse 3 out of its context, and run with their theory. 

Go back and look - don't take my word for it. In verse 3b IS THE MAN OF SIN REVEALED?

If the answer is "yes," and it truly is in every translation I have ever found, then the one restraining has been taken out of the way in the first half of verse 3. This is pure logic.  Many want to ignore logic and just imagine what they want to imagine. 

The truth then is that the word apostasia is tied very tightly to verses 6-8.  It must refer to the one restraining being taken out of the way. It can be nothing else. 

Now, allow me to do your homework for you, since you failed.

Transliteration

apostasia

Pronunciation

ä-po-stä-sē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech

feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Feminine of the same as ἀποστάσιον (G647)

Notice that it is the feminine form of another word: apostasion

Under that word we find: It is a neuter form of "ἀφίστημι (G868)"

When we look at it, we find: 

aphistēmi

Pronunciation

ä-fē'-stā-mē (Key)

Part of Speech

verb

Root Word (Etymology)

From ἀπό (G575) and ἵστημι (G2476)

 

Now, finally we find the first part of the compound word "apo-stasia." It is APO or G575

 

When we look up APO we see this:

of separation

1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...

2. of separation of a part from the whole

   1. where of a whole some part is taken

What? Did you think I just made this up? 

AT the rapture of the church, the whole would be the entire population of the world. 

But the bride would consist of a PART FROM THE WHOLE.

The whole point is, what was Paul thinking when he used this word? NOT what it usually means!  What did Paul mean when He penned this word!

Did you ever notice verse 6 where Paul wrote, "and now you know..."  Know what, Paul?  He was saying, now we know (after reading the previous verses) WHO the restrainer is! Yet, here we are 2000 years later, and there is much confusion! Why? Because they don't understand Paul's meaning of apostasia.  The truth is, Paul wrote this "and now you know" so people would go back and read again but be more diligent!  HE TOLD US who the restrainer is in the word Apostasia. 

However plain some may make this, it is clear that many will not see it. I think perhaps they don't WANT to see it. 

 

Jesus will not come until after apostasy and the revealing. It is apostasy and the revealing that are the restrainer of the coming of Jesus and the one and only gathering.  

You have it completely backwards!  Why not follow the TEXT instead of imagination?

It is ONLY the apostasia that must come first (the departing) and then what? Then the man of sin will be revealed. And then (this is Paul's entire argument) people can KNOW (no doubts) that they are IN the Day of the Lord and it will have already started. And this is EXACTLY what John shows us: The rapture (departing) takes place FIRST - then THE DAY begins at the 6th seal, and the man of sin is revealed in chapter 11.  See how simple this is if we throw out all man's theories and just follow the text?

The revealing of the man of sin?  As Paul told us: he will enter the temple and declare that he is the God of the Jews. THEN, and only then, will he be revealed as the Antichrist BEAST. Again it is not difficult, yet SO MANY get it all twisted up. 

So the man of sin is going to be tagging people all over the world during God's wrath?  What did John write? What did Daniel write? 

They both wrote that the Antichrist Beast will OVERCOME the saints. I did not write it!  The Holy Spirit authored it.  WHERE in Revelation will this be taking place? Let's follow the TEXT, not human reasoning!

Rev. 

15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Notice That in just two verses John writes of God's wrath and the beheaded people finally showing up in heaven.  Make no mistake: they were martyrs of the Beast and False prophet.  You see how plain and simple it is when we just follow what is written?  

God's going to be destroying unbelievers while unbelievers are destroying God's people?

Why not just believe what John has written? Why not put it in bible terms so there is no misunderstanding? The BEAST and Flase prophet will be putting people to death over the image and the mark. That is scripture. We see them arriving in heaven in chapter 15.  But it will be AT THE SAME TIME God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath.  AGain, I did not write it - John did. You are trying to use human reasoning instead of just believing what John wrote. 

I follow the scripture. I believe what I read.  What are you doing?

[Heb 13:8]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Believe it or not: up to you. The truth is, John was called up to heaven while he was still alive - around 95 AD.  However, the first thing he saw was a vision of the past - looking into the throne room sometime before Christ rose from the dead.

Dressed in white and had crowns on their head? This is the church because there is too much contradiction in Rev 12:1-5.

Rev 4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Heb 13:8

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Dressed in white and had crowns on their head? This is the church because there is too much contradiction in Rev 12:1-5.

Rev 4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

One could guess that saints would be dressed in white and have crowns - but this would also be true of Old Testament saints. Who would be "older" than Adam? He would be the oldest of any "elders!"  Perhaps Methuselah would be next. Perhaps Noah would be an elder, and Abraham.  My point is, the 24 elders is simply NO PROOF of the church. They are seen in heaven in a vision around 32 AD.  PERHAPS they were resurrected when Jesus rose from the dead. See Matthew 27:  "The earth did quake...and the graves were opened."

Since they were seen in heaven during the time of the early church, they simple cannot be related to the church. Therefore my guess is that they are Old Testament Elders. 

[Steve Conley]

On 7/26/2018 at 12:06 AM, iamlamad said:

It is OK that  you wish to rearrange Revelation: it seems the thing to do these days. All I am saying is that you will end up being wrong.  John shows us where the 6th seal is. Before the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, ONE FINAL seal must be opened: then, and ONLY then can the book be opened to begin the trumpet judgments. Since the first 6 trumpet judgments will come in the first half of the week, that means the 6th seal is before the week begins. Believe it, for it is the truth of scripture.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlama, could you please tell me when you think the great tribulation begins in relation to other eschatological events? Also, you succinctly define the period called great tribulation? Please note that I'm not interested in your opinions, please provide clear and explicit Scriptural justifiction for your understanding of these things. Thanks.

Hallelujah

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

One could guess that saints would be dressed in white and have crowns - but this would also be true of Old Testament saints. Who would be "older" than Adam? He would be the oldest of any "elders!"  Perhaps Methuselah would be next. Perhaps Noah would be an elder, and Abraham.  My point is, the 24 elders is simply NO PROOF of the church. They are seen in heaven in a vision around 32 AD.  PERHAPS they were resurrected when Jesus rose from the dead. See Matthew 27:  "The earth did quake...and the graves were opened."

Since they were seen in heaven during the time of the early church, they simple cannot be related to the church. Therefore my guess is that they are Old Testament Elders. 

Is there anything that requires the 24 seniors to be human?

[iamlamad]

38 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

iamlama, could you please tell me when you think the great tribulation begins in relation to other eschatological events? Also, you succinctly define the period called great tribulation? Please note that I'm not interested in your opinions, please provide clear and explicit Scriptural justifiction for your understanding of these things. Thanks.

Hallelujah

Yes. I don't "think" where it is, I know where it is, for John TELLS us.  First, we know from Jesus that it must come after the abomination event that will divide the week, so it must come AFTER chapter 11.

Next, what will CAUSE the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of? John tells us in chapter 13. The Beast and False prophet will cause the people to erect a huge image, such as Nebuchadnezzar did, and then force all to worship it, or be put to death. They will create a mark and force all to receive it or die. GREAT PRESSURE will be put on all to worship the image and receive the mark. 

Before the mark will be enforced, God will send angels to warn: to accept this mark will doom people to the lake of fire. Yet, without the mark, cannot buy or sell. Water will become a great commodity. There will be no rain, and God will turn fresh water to blood.  The only water to drink will be in stores, but without the mark, how to get any? 

We see God's warning about the mark in Rev. 14. We can be SURE God would not warn people after the fact - so the days of GT will be AFTER this warning in chapter 14. Finally in chapter 15 we see the martyrs of the Beast and False Prophet begin to show up in heaven.

Therefore the days of GT that Jesus spoke will start late in chapter 14 or between chapter 14 & 15.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Last Daze said:

Is there anything that requires the 24 seniors to be human?

Yes. Scripture.