The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[Steve Conley]

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

New International Version
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

New Living Translation
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.

English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Berean Study Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.

New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

International Standard Version
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.

NET Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

New Heart English Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. [That day cannot come unless] a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.

New American Standard 1977
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Darby Bible Translation
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
 

Other texts use "be revealed" that means the same thing as "is revealed." Paul goes on to tell us what the man of sin will do AFTER he "is" revealed, proving that in 3B he 'IS" meaning that some time before he WAS revealed.

How can you hope to know the intent of the Author when you cannot get one simple question correct?

Of course Paul means that this event has not yet occurred, but in Paul's argument he gets revealed in 3A and in 3B IS revealed. And following "is revealed" Paul tells us what he will do after he is revealed.

In Paul's argument then, something in verse 3A gets this man of sin set free to be revealed. Paul explains this well in verses 6-8. The restrainer must be "taken out of the way." If then in 3B he IS revealed, then in 3A the restrainer HAS BEEN "taken out of the way."  This is simple logic that cannot be faulted if words mean anything.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, it doesn't matter whether it is "is," "be," or "have been", they all indicate a condition that must be met before the day of Christ's arrival and our gathering unto Him can take place. The unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel (great tribulation) must happen first. This unprecedented persecution is initiated by the abomination of desolation when the man of sin shews himself to be God in the rebuilt temple and the persecution and deception results in the notable falling away.

It's not that difficult. It is only complicated when trying to read pretribulationism into the text.

Praise Jesus

[Steve Conley]

44 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I guess you know, there is "on the other hand" here. Posttribbers have to wrestle with certain scriptures also. And prewrathers have to rearrange most of the book of Revelation to make their theory fit. 

Make no mistake here: there are scripture YOU must twist to make your doctrine work.  

You imagine Paul cannot use a compound word in the way it was meant to work?  Have you considered out English word, "paradigm?"  Para means side by side, such as in parallel, and the "digm" means comparison. Could I now then use this word and say that Paul gives us a perfect paradigm, in 1 thes. 5, where he shows us that two different groups of people get two different results?  Yet, the use of this word has shifted into something OTHER than a comparison between two.  Its use has switched from a noun to an adjective. 

You imagine Paul could not have meant a departing [of the church] even after I showed you that the meaning of each of the compound words fits PERFECTLY with the catching away of the saints.  Like I said, lets just ASK Paul when we see him. 

If you wish to make this a departing from the faith or a falling away, then you are faced with another dilemma. Because of the rest of this passage, you are faced with this: the falling away has to be the one restraining "taken out of the way." Why? Because in Paul's argument, in 3B the man of sin IS [meaning has been) revealed. 

The question then becomes, who really is twisting the true meaning of this passage?

Question: in your theory, is the rapture a part of the Day of the Lord? Or does the rapture happen outside of the Day of the Lord?

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Unlike pretribulationism, no shoehorn is necessary to when teaching the pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture. It is the apostolic doctrine of Christ's singular second coming (parousia) for His church (elect) and to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. The prophets, Jesus, and the apostles all say the same thing. It is false teaching which complicates the singular message of the Holy Scriptures concerning Christ's return.

The church will only have complete rest from persecution when Jesus comes bringing vengeance upon our persecutors.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Praise Jesus

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Unlike pretribulationism, no shoehorn is necessary to when teaching the pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture. It is the apostolic doctrine of Christ's singular second coming (parousia) for His church (elect) and to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. The prophets, Jesus, and the apostles all say the same thing. It is false teaching which complicates the singular message of the Holy Scriptures concerning Christ's return.

The church will only have complete rest from persecution when Jesus comes bringing vengeance upon our persecutors.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Praise Jesus

The truth is, prewrath theory does more damage to the scriptures than ANY OTHER end time theory. However, prewrather's preconceived glasses are thicker than most, so they cannot see how they destroy the book of Revelation. Neither can they see that when Jesus comes, TOTAL DARKNESS will be upon the earth. Some prewrath teaches teach this. On the other hand, before the DAY and for the sign of the DAY, the moon will be blood red. These are two different signs for two different events. 

Prewrathers truly have no idea where the days of GT really are found in Revelation. 

The worst though is that prewrathers fail to see that Jesus will come TWICE more, first FOR His bride, and then later WITH His bride.

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

New International Version
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

New Living Translation
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.

English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Berean Study Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.

New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

International Standard Version
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.

NET Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

New Heart English Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. [That day cannot come unless] a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.

New American Standard 1977
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Darby Bible Translation
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
 

 

Hi iamlamad,

Look at all the bible translations that you quoted. These and many others, agree, that the rebellion, turning from God, falling from the faith....etc....must occur first.

Yet you use these versions to point out something else that fits your agenda.

I must say that it is rather comical.

[Steve Conley]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, prewrath theory does more damage to the scriptures than ANY OTHER end time theory. However, prewrather's preconceived glasses are thicker than most, so they cannot see how they destroy the book of Revelation. Neither can they see that when Jesus comes, TOTAL DARKNESS will be upon the earth. Some prewrath teaches teach this. On the other hand, before the DAY and for the sign of the DAY, the moon will be blood red. These are two different signs for two different events. 

Prewrathers truly have no idea where the days of GT really are found in Revelation. 

The worst though is that prewrathers fail to see that Jesus will come TWICE more, first FOR His bride, and then later WITH His bride.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, it is true that light dispels darkness and truth exposes error. So, I can see how the truth of the pre-wrath rapture as presented by Christ and the Apostles does great damage to the pernicious teaching of pretribulationism. Your beef is with them, not me, because all I do communicate what they have said.

I'm beginning to think that your only purpose here is to muddy the water, to prevent others from seeing the clear, simple, and consistent teaching of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him.

I encourage all who read these posts to consider Paul's words

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Iamlamad, I'm going to be here to let the light of truth shine every time you attempt to pull closed the shades.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Let Jesus be praised

[iamlamad]

34 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, it is true that light dispels darkness and truth exposes error. So, I can see how the truth of the pre-wrath rapture as presented by Christ and the Apostles does great damage to the pernicious teaching of pretribulationism. Your beef is with them, not me, because all I do communicate what they have said.

I'm beginning to think that your only purpose here is to muddy the water, to prevent others from seeing the clear, simple, and consistent teaching of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him.

I encourage all who read these posts to consider Paul's words

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Iamlamad, I'm going to be here to let the light of truth shine every time you attempt to pull closed the shades.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Let Jesus be praised

Glory to God forever! The truth will win out and it will be accomplished, just as it is written. The truth is, pretrib has stood the test of time and all the onslaughts brought against it. Someone once said that pretrib was only an American idea: that in the rest of the world, they believe the truth: post trib!  Well, I took them up on that challenge and wrote to believers in almost every nation in Africa. What did I find? Most believed in pretrib. and their answer was, "its in the bible."  Amazing! That is the same answer American's give also: "it's in the bible."

It is not pretribber's fault that others have preconceived glasses too thick to see the truth of God's word. The truth of God's word is, there are end times scriptures pointed straight to the descendants of Jacob, and are NOT FOR the church. But when people take these verses and try to apply them to the church, we get posttrib thought, midtrib thought, and prewrath thought  - and none agree with the others. One thing we can know for sure, God is not all three!

The truth is, the rapture (the catching up of alive believers) was a mystery and unknown to all  - until Paul received the revelation. Most of those in Christ's day knew there would be a day of resurrection - but supposed it would be on the last day, as Jesus told them.  But at that time the Gentile church was UNKNOWN! It did not begin until years after Peter preached his Pentecost sermon. God waited to see if the Jews as a nation would accept Him as their Messiah. When they refused, God stopped the Hebrew clock, and sent Paul to the Gentiles. The Gentile church of which we are a part, was as a parenthesis in the timeline of the Jews. The Day of the Lord was ahead of them, but when God turned to the Gentile, that got postponed. 

Now, in the church age - the age for the Gentiles to be saved - people try to mix up scripture for the Jews, and imagine it is for the church. WRONG!  ANY theory that imagines the church will be on earth for any part of the 70th week of Daniel are simply teaching error. 

Despite what you imagine, I am here for one purpose: to teach truth.  What is sad is that you cannot recognize it! Do you realize prewrath did not even exist until Rosenthal and Van Kampen came along? You cannot go back into history and find any hint of prewrath doctrine.  On the other hand, pretrib has been written about for many centuries. 

 

  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the day of the Lord - NOT the day of the rapture] shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be [is, has now been] revealed, the son of perdition;

Then Paul explains what this man will do after he has been revealed, proving that IS or HAS NOW BEEN is the correct meaning. He can do nothing UNTIL he is revealed. 

The truth then is that hidden in the word Apostasia or departing is the one restraining being "taken out of the way."  Since the Greek word APO means a part of the whole separated from the whole, and moves spatially to a different location, and it done SO FAST the rest of the whole was stationary - no moving - we can see that Paul chose a good word.  

The truth then, is that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the entity restraining him is moved or taken out of the way.  APO fits that "taking out of the way." Then when Paul tells us that after apo-stasisa the man of sin IS REVEALED, we can know that the catching away of the church - the departing of the church - the taking out of the way of the church has been accomplished before "IS REVEALED" happens. 

This is not my theory. MILLIONS now see that this fits the passage much better than a falling away.

When we see that in 1 Thes. Paul is saying the very same thing: that the rapture comes FIRST, and suddenly, with no warning; and then the DAY comes immediately after, we see agreement. 

Then, finally, we we see that at the 5th seal the martyrs of the church are told they must wait for the FINAL martyr before judgment can come, we find yet another proof of a pretrib rapture. They must wait until the pretrib rapture ENDS the church age, before judgment can come.

As the final nail in posttrib / prewath arguments coffin, we find a great crowd TOO LARGE to number, in heaven before John begins the 70th week, we know pretrib is truth.  It is the just raptured church, safe in heaven, before the week begins. 

But there is yet another nail in the posttrib coffin: the church is IN HEAVEN for the marriage before Jesus descends to earth to face Armageddon.

Pretrib theory when taught correctly requires no changing or rearranging Revelation, for this theory fits Revelation in perfect order as written. On the other hand, prewrath theory requires an entire rewrite of the book of Revelation to make it even seem to fit. 

Glory to God! Let truth prevail!

Edited August 14, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad,

Look at all the bible translations that you quoted. These and many others, agree, that the rebellion, turning from God, falling from the faith....etc....must occur first.

Yet you use these versions to point out something else that fits your agenda.

I must say that it is rather comical.

The truth is, all those writers did not read or else did not believe the first translations into English - that used the word departing or departure.  The point was well made, however, that in verse 3B in Paul's argument, the man of sin IS revealed, and goes about doing his stuff. 

Did you notice in all these verses that the man if sin IS REVEALED?

By the way, I have no agenda but the truth. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, we can all quote Paul when he says,"Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God". You know very well that is not what I was referring to. I was referring to your doctrine of "the three churches" as quoted below.

This is just one of a multitude of aberrant teachings that you promote.

Praise Jesus

Why is it you disagree with scripture? Do you just not believe it?

Acts 7:38

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

I did not write this, Luke did. He called it a church. It was a gathering of those that walked out of Egypt. Moses gave them the LAW. I could quote the entirity of the Olivet Discourse, but it would be long. It was JESUS speaking to Hebrew men about the end of THEIR age. Get it? Don't take my word for it - READ:

Daniel 9:²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Notice what is highlighted. Now read Jesus:

Matthew 24:¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is Jesus referring to the above verse in Daniel. Jesus therefore is speaking about the 70th week, because He spoke about the midpoint event in the week. Now, let's see what else Daniel wrote about this:

Dan 9:²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city...

Again, I did not write this, Daniel did. Daniel's 70th week, also known as "the trib" is for JEWS and HEBREWS. It is not for the church.  Do you then  insist on a theory that forces the church to be on earth during any part of this week?

Pretrib does not. In correct pretrib thought, the church is removed before the week begins. That is what Paul teaches and that is what Revelation shows. 

Now, the third "church" which is the Gentile church: Was the Thessalonians Jew, or Gentile? There we find Paul's classic rapture verses - written to Gentiles.

Again I will say it, if anyone does not discover to which of these three groups an end times verse is pointed towards, their end time doctrine will be a mess. People imagine that the gathering in Matthew 24 is for the church. They are sadly mistaken. 

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, all those writers did not read or else did not believe the first translations into English - that used the word departing or departure.  The point was well made, however, that in verse 3B in Paul's argument, the man of sin IS revealed, and goes about doing his stuff. 

Did you notice in all these verses that the man if sin IS REVEALED?

By the way, I have no agenda but the truth. 

Hi iamlamad....

In all of your long studies, did you ever do a study on 2 Thes 2:7....in the Greek. The reason I'm asking is because the Greek is completely different from what most of the bibles have translated.

 

                    " The restraining will do so until he is born out of the middle "..............

Here then, are Strong's numbers for you to look up and check it out......

" the (3588).....restraining (2722).......out of (1537).........the middle (3319)..........he is born or becomes (1096)

Might be worth checking out.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad....

In all of your long studies, did you ever do a study on 2 Thes 2:7....in the Greek. The reason I'm asking is because the Greek is completely different from what most of the bibles have translated.

 

                    " The restraining will do so until he is born out of the middle "..............

Here then, are Strong's numbers for you to look up and check it out......

" the (3588).....restraining (2722).......out of (1537).........the middle (3319)..........he is born or becomes (1096)

Might be worth checking out.

In fact, I made a list of every Strong's definition for every word in the verse. 

What difference does it make if the restrainer is "gone from the midst" or is "taken out of the way?" The meaning  is very close to the same. However, gone from the midst may sound more like a part of the whole removed from the whole to a different location.  The point is, in verse 3B it is a done deal, already accomplished, because the man of sin IS revealed. I think the earliest translations did just fine with a "departing." In 3A the restrainer is departing, so that in 3B the man of sin IS revealed.

We must not forget, this is a very significant "departing." For Paul's argument to work, it had to be something so significant that when people see it they will know: "Ah! Paul's writing coming to pass!"