The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

 

Hi Last Daze,

I agree that the Lord will judge people when He comes to this earth, however I was referring to the Lord `manifesting His judgments,` through the tribulation. (Rev. 15: 4)

We see the Lord touching the `food bowl and water,` - grass/grain for bread and animals feed, water for drinking and growing crops, all these and more the Lord rains down fire and blood and hail, upon. (Rev. 8)

Many people die of hunger, thirst and heat.

 The nation`s economies are affected and I believe this will hasten on the `mark` as food and water will be scarce.  

 

Marilyn.

 

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

I agree that the Lord will judge people when He comes to this earth, however I was referring to the Lord `manifesting His judgments,` through the tribulation. (Rev. 15: 4)

We see the Lord touching the `food bowl and water,` - grass/grain for bread and animals feed, water for drinking and growing crops, all these and more the Lord rains down fire and blood and hail, upon. (Rev. ?

Many people die of hunger, thirst and heat.

 The nation`s economies are affected and I believe this will hasten on the `mark` as food and water will be scarce. 

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I thought we'd covered this and were in agreement that God's judgment / wrath begins when the seventh seal is opened.  Maybe the "bump in the road" is who is being judged and why?  Do you agree with John 12:47-48 that those who reject Jesus are judged on the last day and not before?

• If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.  He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.  John 12:47-48

If those who reject Jesus aren't judged until the last day then who are the plagues judging?  And what is the judgment that is being rendered?  This is not a trivial point to be brushed aside but serves to help frame what's going in the last days and why.  I really think we should address this before continuing.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:16 PM, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I thought we'd covered this and were in agreement that God's judgment / wrath begins when the seventh seal is opened.  Maybe the "bump in the road" is who is being judged and why?  Do you agree with John 12:47-48 that those who reject Jesus are judged on the last day and not before?

• If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.  He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.  John 12:47-48

If those who reject Jesus aren't judged until the last day then who are the plagues judging?  And what is the judgment that is being rendered?  This is not a trivial point to be brushed aside but serves to help frame what's going in the last days and why.  I really think we should address this before continuing.

Hi Last Daze,

Yes, let`s address this, as you say. I think I am, (at last) understanding where you are coming from. We seemed to have been on two different tracks as it were. So let`s look at that scripture.

`...if anyone hears my words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

He who rejects me, and does not receive my words, has that which judges him - the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.` (John 12: 47 & 48)

Direct Statements.

1.Jesus came to save the world.

2.The last day will be the judgment of those who do not receive the Lord.

 

Now we know that when Jesus comes to earth after the (great)tribulation, then He will gather all the nations and judge them.

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then he will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and he will separate them one from another,....

the King will answer and say to them,” Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me..` (Matt. 25: 31, 32,  & 40)

Direct Statements.

1.The Lord will come with His Holy Angels to judge the nations.

2.They are judged regarding how they treated His brethren, Israel.

 

Thus we see that in the scripture in John 12, the Lord is NOT referring to His judging the nations when He comes in glory with His angels. Scripture tells us that at the great white throne is where people who are not in the book of life will be judged. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15)

The Great White Throne is the `Last Day,` the final judgment.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Yes, let`s address this, as you say. I think I am, (at last) understanding where you are coming from. We seemed to have been on two different tracks as it were. So let`s look at that scripture.

`...if anyone hears my words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

He who rejects me, and does not receive my words, has that which judges him - the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.` (John 12: 47 & 48)

Direct Statements.

1.Jesus came to save the world.

2.The last day will be the judgment of those who do not receive the Lord.

 

Now we know that when Jesus comes to earth after the (great)tribulation, then He will gather all the nations and judge them.

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then he will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and he will separate them one from another,....

the King will answer and say to them,” Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me..` (Matt. 25: 31, 32,  & 40)

Direct Statements.

1.The Lord will come with His Holy Angels to judge the nations.

2.They are judged regarding how they treated His brethren, Israel.

 

Thus we see that in the scripture in John 12, the Lord is NOT referring to His judging the nations when He comes in glory with His angels. Scripture tells us that at the great white throne is where people who are not in the book of life will be judged. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15)

The Great White Throne is the `Last Day,` the final judgment.

regards, Marilyn.

I see the chronology outlined in Matthew 24 & 25 a bit differently.  Here is a cursory overview:

1. The conquering of truth through deception. Matt 24:4-5
2. A time of war. Matt 24:6-8
3. A time of great tribulation.  Matt 24:9-13
4. The return of Jesus.  Matthew 25:1-13
5. The rewarding of believers.  Matthew 25:14-30
6. (Millennial reign of Christ)
7. The judging of the nations.  Matthew 25:31-46

There are two judgments and two "last days".  The first judgment is when Jesus returns on the last day of Satan's reign.  Those who are judged to be in Christ are made immortal, rewarded, and rule with Him for 1000 years.  The second judgment is at the end of the millennium when everyone else is judged on the last day of the old heaven and earth.

Whether you're in agreement with that or not, it still remains that those who reject the words of Jesus aren't judged until the last day, whether that be the last day of Satan's reign (judged as not being "in Christ"), or the last day of this heaven and earth (judged with the nations).

So, the question still remains.  Who are the plagues judging and why?  My understanding is that the plagues are a judgment against the idolatry of those believers who were deceived into worshiping the man of sin.  They are meant to segregate the repentant from the hard-hearted.  God is judging those believers who were ill-prepared, who did not come out of Babylon, who were deceived by the signs and wonders performed by the man of sin.  The plagues are sent as conviction of their idolatry for the purpose of repentance.  Those who are meek and humble themselves and repent will inherit the earth and populate it during the millennial reign of Christ.

[Steve Conley]

On 8/18/2018 at 5:46 AM, Christine said:

* The hope which is being discussed in this thread quoted above from 1 Thess. 4, is not the hope of the church which is the Body of Christ, there will be no trumpet call, or voice of the archangel to herald their appearing with their Head in glory. The archangel being associated with Israel.

* You need to consider the company being spoken to, and the time it was spoken, in light of the further revelation given to Paul following the laying aside (temporarily) of the nation of Israel in unbelief at the end of the Acts period. 

* The church which is the Body of Christ, look for His 'appearing', not for His 'coming'. Titus 2:13:-

‘Looking for that blessed hope, 
and the glorious appearing 
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ ... ’
(Tit 2:13)  

* 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim 4:1; 2 Tim. 4:8 - these verse show that Christ's 'appearing' (epiphaneia) and the event described in Colossians 3:3-4, take place immediately prior to His coming in judgement. 

Praise His Holy Name!

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Chris, Christ's appearing is the first action of Christ on the day of His coming (parousia). The many Scriptures that speak of Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence) make it clear that there are many things that take place upon the literal day of His arrival. Note that the day of the Lord or the day of Christ, which can also be referred to as Christ's parousia, is not a single solar day, it is a period of time involving our rescue, God's wrath poured out, and Christ's eternal reign. Below find a great number of things said to take place upon the first day of Christ's parousia.

1) Great tribulation ends (Matt 24:21, 29)

2) The cosmic sign and great earthquake take place (Matt 24:29; Luke 21:25-26; Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12-17; Isa 13:6-11; 2:19-21)

3) Having seen the cosmic sign, the remaining believers will be encouraged and looking up into the sky for Him to appear for their redemption is near (Luke 21:25-28)

4) Christ returns in the clouds with the holy angels (Matt 24:30; 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 21:27-28; Rev 1:7). This is the epiphaneia (Titus 2:13), this is the sign (wonder) of the son of man (Mat 24:30), this is the revelation (2Thes 1:7) of Jesus Christ in all His glory for every eye to see.

5) The earth-dwellers who had been persecuting the church and Israel will be attempting to hide from the wrath of the Lamb that will begin to fall later the same day (Rev 6:12-17)

6) The dead in Christ are resurrected and the living saints are changed. This is the first resurrection (1Cor 15:23-24, 51-52; Rev 20:4-6; Dan 12:1-3)

7) The resurrected saints and those who are alive and remain are caught up (raptured) together by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1)

? We are taken to the Fathers house to stand before Christ at the throne of God (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17; Luke 21:36)

9) The sealing of the 144,000 Jews who will remain protected upon the earth through the trumpet and vial judgements (Rev 7:1-8)

10) There is a half hour of silence in heaven (Rev 8:1)

11) God's day of the Lord wrath begins to be poured out in the trumpet and later vial judgements (1Thes 5:2-3; 2Thes 1:6-10; Rev 8, 9, 16-19)

Jesus and Paul both taught that the day (literal day) of our deliverance (rapture) would be the day God's wrath begins to fall upon the wicked (those who will have been persecuting us and Israel).

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul clearly associates the catching up of the church (our gathering together unto Christ) with Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence).

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Jesus also fixes His coming to the gathering of His elect to him by the angels, which is how the rapture will happen.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

Praise Jesus

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

 

So, the question still remains.  Who are the plagues judging and why?  My understanding is that the plagues are a judgment against the idolatry of those believers who were deceived into worshiping the man of sin.  They are meant to segregate the repentant from the hard-hearted.  God is judging those believers who were ill-prepared, who did not come out of Babylon, who were deceived by the signs and wonders performed by the man of sin.  The plagues are sent as conviction of their idolatry for the purpose of repentance.  Those who are meek and humble themselves and repent will inherit the earth and populate it during the millennial reign of Christ.

Hi Last Daze,

Mmmm that`s different. You said -

Who are the plagues judging and why?  My understanding is that the plagues are a judgment against the idolatry of those believers who were deceived into worshiping the man of sin. 

So you are saying that the plagues etc is the Lord judging `BELIEVERS?`

Mmmm so who are these?

`But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.` (Rev. 9: 20 & 21)

`...because you have judged these things, for they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.

And I heard another from the altar saying,” Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are your judgments.` (Rev. 16: 5 - 7)

Marilyn.

[Christine]

10 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Chris, Christ's appearing is the first action of Christ on the day of His coming (parousia). The many Scriptures that speak of Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence) make it clear that there are many things that take place upon the literal day of His arrival. Note that the day of the Lord or the day of Christ, which can also be referred to as Christ's parousia, is not a single solar day, it is a period of time involving our rescue, God's wrath poured out, and Christ's eternal reign. Below find a great number of things said to take place upon the first day of Christ's parousia.

1) Great tribulation ends (Matt 24:21, 29)

2) The cosmic sign and great earthquake take place (Matt 24:29; Luke 21:25-26; Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12-17; Isa 13:6-11; 2:19-21)

3) Having seen the cosmic sign, the remaining believers will be encouraged and looking up into the sky for Him to appear for their redemption is near (Luke 21:25-28)

4) Christ returns in the clouds with the holy angels (Matt 24:30; 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 21:27-28; Rev 1:7). This is the epiphaneia (Titus 2:13), this is the sign (wonder) of the son of man (Mat 24:30), this is the revelation (2Thes 1:7) of Jesus Christ in all His glory for every eye to see.

5) The earth-dwellers who had been persecuting the church and Israel will be attempting to hide from the wrath of the Lamb that will begin to fall later the same day (Rev 6:12-17)

6) The dead in Christ are resurrected and the living saints are changed. This is the first resurrection (1Cor 15:23-24, 51-52; Rev 20:4-6; Dan 12:1-3)

7) The resurrected saints and those who are alive and remain are caught up (raptured) together by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1)

? We are taken to the Fathers house to stand before Christ at the throne of God (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17; Luke 21:36)

9) The sealing of the 144,000 Jews who will remain protected upon the earth through the trumpet and vial judgements (Rev 7:1-8)

10) There is a half hour of silence in heaven (Rev 8:1)

11) God's day of the Lord wrath begins to be poured out in the trumpet and later vial judgements (1Thes 5:2-3; 2Thes 1:6-10; Rev 8, 9, 16-19)

Jesus and Paul both taught that the day (literal day) of our deliverance (rapture) would be the day God's wrath begins to fall upon the wicked (those who will have been persecuting us and Israel).

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul clearly associates the catching up of the church (our gathering together unto Christ) with Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence).

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Jesus also fixes His coming to the gathering of His elect to him by the angels, which is how the rapture will happen.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

Praise Jesus

 

Thank you, Steve, for acknowledging and responding to my post.  It is appreciated, and I thank you for the time and consideration you have given to the subject. There are many elements within your response which I would like to respond to, but it would distract from the main purpose of the thread, which is the 'pre-trib rapture'.  So I will content myself with giving you my thanks.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour, Lord and Head,

Chris

 

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by Christine

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So you are saying that the plagues etc is the Lord judging `BELIEVERS?`

The plagues are for those who engage in the sins of Babylon.  They serve the purpose of segregating the deceived believers from the ungodly.  They will either cause people to repent of their idolatry or harden their hearts.  Those who repent and forsake worshiping the false prophet are no longer subjected to the effects of the plagues.

The judgment that God has made is that the man of sin is not God as he claims.  The plagues serve the purpose of "proving" this judgment by demonstrating that the man of sin is powerless over creation.  God is putting this impotence on display with the first four plagues adversely affecting creation while the man of sin can do nothing about it.  After the first four plagues come the three woes, with the last woe being the return of Jesus.

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Mmmm so who are these?

`But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.` (Rev. 9: 20 & 21)

They are the ungodly.  At this point in the plagues, the segregation is complete.  The point of non-repentance is actually reached at the end of the fourth plague (fourth bowl).

I may need to make a "course correction" here and agree with my pre-wrath brethren that the sixth seal does indeed correlate to the last day.  It's clear that the ungodly are also being judged and based on John 12:47-48, that only takes place at the last day.  So, I'll back off of my previous objection while I sort all this out.

Go ahead with the idea that Jesus is judging the ungodly from heaven.  Thanks for your patience.

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Thanks for your patience.

Hi Last Daze,

 

And thank you for your patience with me. (Now I do talk to the computer sometimes if you know what I mean, (lol) Now I need to clear up these details first.

 

Jesus judges the nations as shown in Matt. 25, according to how they treated Israel. The prophet Joel tells us this also -

 

`(God days) I will gather all nations (living Gentiles) and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, (outside Jerusalem) and I will enter into judgment with them there ON ACCOUNT OF MY PEOPLE, MY HERITAGE ISRAEL.` (Joel 3: 2)

 

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then he will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered (living Gentiles) before Him, and he will separate them one from another,....

the King will answer and say to them,” Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, (Israel)you did it to me..` (Matt. 25: 31, 32,  & 40)

 

 

Remember I showed you that in John 12: 47 - 48 that Jesus says He DOES NOT judge people on the Last Day. `I do not judge him...` The Last Day is at the Great White Throne when the Almighty God judges those not in the book of life. That is every DEAD person.

 

So judgment upon the nations (living Gentiles) as to how they treat Israel and thus whether they can go into the millennium, the Lord`s rule through Israel over the nations. Then after the thousand years death is destroyed, the final judgment of all who are DEAD, (not in the book of life) at the Great White Throne.

 

Marilyn.

(BTW am enjoying our discussion).

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

 

And thank you for your patience with me. (Now I do talk to the computer sometimes if you know what I mean, (lol) Now I need to clear up these details first.

 

Jesus judges the nations as shown in Matt. 25, according to how they treated Israel. The prophet Joel tells us this also -

 

`(God days) I will gather all nations (living Gentiles) and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, (outside Jerusalem) and I will enter into judgment with them there ON ACCOUNT OF MY PEOPLE, MY HERITAGE ISRAEL.` (Joel 3: 2)

 

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then he will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered (living Gentiles) before Him, and he will separate them one from another,....

the King will answer and say to them,” Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, (Israel)you did it to me..` (Matt. 25: 31, 32,  & 40)

 

 

Remember I showed you that in John 12: 47 - 48 that Jesus says He DOES NOT judge people on the Last Day. `I do not judge him...` The Last Day is at the Great White Throne when the Almighty God judges those not in the book of life. That is every DEAD person.

 

So judgment upon the nations (living Gentiles) as to how they treat Israel and thus whether they can go into the millennium, the Lord`s rule through Israel over the nations. Then after the thousand years death is destroyed, the final judgment of all who are DEAD, (not in the book of life) at the Great White Throne.

 

Marilyn.

(BTW am enjoying our discussion).

Hi Marilyn,

I see the Matt 25:31 judging of the nations as taking place after the millennium.  The judging of Joel 3:2 I see as at the return of Jesus.  That's not really something I want to take the time and hash out right now though. 

Go ahead and make your case as to why all this necessitates a pretrib rapture so I can see the rationale behind it.  I'll assume that your views are correct for the sake of argument.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Last Daze