The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[OldCoot]

Steve, I came across something that has caused me to modify how I view these things. 

While I still hold that the righteous are removed prior to this stuff, I have been persuaded that the first 5 seals are during an interlude between that event and the start of the tribulation period / 7 years / etc. 

What did it more for me was the 4th seal.   If one reads it slowly, it does not say that 1/4 of the earth are killed as many have supposed.  It is that death and hades gain control of 1/4 of the earth, and with that, then to kill off folks.  And those specifically who would be the target of that are the martyrs of the 5th seal.

Where this gets interesting is that in Isaiah 28:14-15, Israel is making a pact with death and sheol (hades) to avoid the onslaught that will be going on.  The context of the passage is the latter days .  And they will be able to avoid being a target of that onslaught, but Isaiah 28:18 then says the pact / covenant will be annulled and the scourge will come to them.  I believe it is when the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem.  This seems to comport well with Daniel 9:27.

Death and Sheol/Hades may not be a concept in view but actual references to entities.  It has been proposed that death and hades in the passage may mean the false prophet and the one world religious setup.  

Also, if the 70th week had already started, the martyrs in the 5th seal would not be asking how long until they are avenged.  If that 7 year period had started, they would know how long. Sometimes we need to look at what is actually being said and not what we think is being said.  Kinda like how a cop or lawyer would look at testimonies.

If the above is what is going on, then the 6th seal would indeed be the official start point of the 7 years then.

So I am not beyond seeing things differently when the case is solid from both NT and OT.  It requires at least those two witnesses at a minimum to substantiate any case being made regarding a matter.

But my position on the righteous being removed prior to all this have not wavered.  There are many supportive texts in both NT and OT for the righteous being removed/hidden from these events.  Keep in mind, those that are martyred went into the period as non righteous but then realized their big mistake and turned to Yeshua.  And they pay for that decision with their lives.   Daniel 7 makes it very clear that the saints will be given into the antichrist's hand.  And if Isaiah and Revelation are correct, it will be a wholesale slaughter of everyone that believes.  They will be hunted down like animals and killed.    There is no scriptural support to suggest that the Body of Messiah / Church proper is ever given over to the antichrist's hand.

Edited September 28, 2018 by OldCoot
Spelling

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Steve C

Which "Day of the Lord" are you referring to?  There are more than One.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, there is only one eschatological day of the Lord.

Glory be unto Jesus Christ

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, there is only one eschatological day of the Lord.

Glory be unto Jesus Christ

False

2 Peter 3:10 - But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.  The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will destroyed  by fire, the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Is this an eschatological day of the Lord.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Steve, I came across something that has caused me to modify how I view these things. 

While I still hold that the righteous are removed prior to this stuff, I have been persuaded that the first 5 seals are during an interlude between that event and the start of the tribulation period / 7 years / etc. 

What did it more for me was the 4th seal.   If one reads it slowly, it does not say that 1/4 of the earth are killed as many have supposed.  It is that death and hades gain control of 1/4 of the earth, and with that, then to kill off folks.  And those specifically who would be the target of that are the martyrs of the 5th seal.

Where this gets interesting is that in Isaiah 28:14-15, Israel is making a pact with death and sheol (hades) to avoid the onslaught that will be going on.  The context of the passage is the latter days .  And they will be able to avoid being a target of that onslaught, but Isaiah 28:18 then says the pact / covenant will be annulled and the scourge will come to them.  I believe it is when the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem.  This seems to comport well with Daniel 9:27.

Death and Sheol/Hades may not be a concept in view but actual references to entities.  It has been proposed that death and hades in the passage may mean the false prophet and the one world religious setup.  

Also, if the 70th week had already started, the martyrs in the 5th seal would not be asking how long until they are avenged.  If that 7 year period had started, they would know how long. Sometimes we need to look at what is actually being said and not what we think is being said.  Kinda like how a cop or lawyer would look at testimonies.

If the above is what is going on, then the 6th seal would indeed be the official start point of the 7 years then.

So I am not beyond seeing things differently when the case is solid from both NT and OT.  It requires at least those two witnesses at a minimum to substantiate any case being made regarding a matter.

But my position on the righteous being removed prior to all this have not wavered.  There are many supportive texts in both NT and OT for the righteous being removed/hidden from these events.  Keep in mind, those that are martyred went into the period as non righteous but then realized their big mistake and turned to Yeshua.  And they pay for that decision with their lives.   Daniel 7 makes it very clear that the saints will be given into the antichrist's hand.  And if Isaiah and Revelation are correct, it will be a wholesale slaughter of everyone that believes.  They will be hunted down like animals and killed.    There is no scriptural support to suggest that the Body of Messiah / Church proper is ever given over to the antichrist's hand.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, it does appear that what John sees at the opening of the fourth and fifth seals is connected. I take it to be the great tribulation. There are a hand full of reasons why I do.

First I have noticed a parallel between that which Jesus describes as the beginning of sorrows (Matt 24:4-8) and what John sees at the opening of the first three seals (Rev 6:1-6). If they are the same thing, and they appear to be, then it follows that what comes right after the beginning of sorrows will be that which John sees when the 4th and 5th seals are opened. When Jesus said "then" (Matt 24:9), we know that the unprecedented persecution follows the beginning of sorrows. When Jesus said "therefore" (Matt 24:15) we know that the violent persecution that he introduced in verse 9 is the great tribulation (Matt 24:21) that begins with the abomination of desolation as specified in verse 15. The fact that the great tribulation follows the beginning of sorrows makes it clear that what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals is discripive of that time of unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel.

The second thing that indicates that what John sees at the opening of seals 4 and 5 is the great tribulation is the indication of mass loss of life.

Rev 6:7  And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

It would appear that a quarter of the population are killed. However, it could mean that the deaths take place in an area which is a quarter of the earth. I am not dogmatic either way. Any way you look at it a lot of people are being killed. This parallels the slaughter of the elect that Jesus said would be so severe that if He didn't cut it short, none of them would be left alive.

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Also, I have noticed that the means of the loss of life is consistant with that spoken by Christ and John's descriptions of the persecutions of the Beast found in the rest of the book of Revelation. It is intresting to note that the only other uses of "thay-ree'-on", the Greek word translated beasts in verse 8, in the book of Revelation, is to identify the Beast (Antichrist) and the beast out of the earth (the False Prophet) and we know they are primarily responsible for the violence commited against the elect and Israel in the great tribulation.

Another thing that causes me to believe that seals 4 and 5 reveal the happenings of the great tribulation is what follows when the sixth seal is opened. When the sixth seal is opened, John sees the cosmic sign that Joel prophesied would take place before the day of the Lord. So, Christ's revelation at the beginning of the day of the Lord follows the scene in heaven when the martyred saints are told that God's vengeance upon their murderers whould have to wait a little season until their brethren and fellowservants are killed as they were. This is exactly how Christ described His coming in Matt 24. Great tribulation, until it is cut short by his return , at which time He is revealed in the clouds, and then gathers his own to himself. Remember that Jesus and Paul taught that the day of our rescue would be the day His wrath falls upon our persecutors.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There is absolutely no Scripture that forces one to conclude that the seventieth week is the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. That is an accomidation to a eschatological system that can be shown to be based upon missunderstandings, conjecture, inferance, and circular reasoning. It is very clear that the great tribulation begins in the middle of the week and that the day of the Lord comes after it.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

[Montana Marv]

22 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

There is absolutely no Scripture that forces one to conclude that the seventieth week is the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. That is an accomidation to a eschatological system that can be shown to be based upon missunderstandings, conjecture, inferance, and circular reasoning. It is very clear that the great tribulation begins in the middle of the week and that the day of the Lord comes after it.

Correct

The 70th Week is the 70th Week.  The first half of this week, Tribulation Saints are persecuted, one cannot buy or sell unless they have the Mark.  How long, 42 Months.  No Wrath of God here.  Wrath from the A/C, yes.  Now the second 42 months, the Wrath of God occurs sometime during this segment.  All the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl Judgments can easily fit into the last 42 Months.  And the Dragon perused the woman for 42 Months.  When you (Israel) see standing in the Holy Place the A/D, flee.

Don't put all Pre Trib individuals in the same basket.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OldCoot]

Steve, I would have to see substantive support for your position also from the OT before I could consider it.  That is the standard (two witnesses) set in scripture and the standard affirmed by the Bereans.

the great tribulation proper is indeed the 2nd half of the 70th week / 7 years. That really is not in dispute.  The only issue is when and what starts the 7 years.

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Correct

The 70th Week is the 70th Week.  The first half of this week, Tribulation Saints are persecuted, one cannot buy or sell unless they have the Mark.  How long, 42 Months.  No Wrath of God here.  Wrath from the A/C, yes.  Now the second 42 months, the Wrath of God occurs sometime during this segment.  All the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl Judgments can easily fit into the last 42 Months.  And the Dragon perused the woman for 42 Months.  When you (Israel) see standing in the Holy Place the A/D, flee.

Don't put all Pre Trib individuals in the same basket.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, can you provide even one verse that says that the saints (of any type) are experiencing the tribulation you describe in the first half of the week.

Jesus, referencing Daniel, links the start of the great tribulation to the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27).

John links the beginning of the great wrath of the Devil toward Israel and Christians to the middle of the week (Rev 12:7-17).

Paul links the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) to the middle of the week (2Thes 2:7). ("Mesos" which means middle was translated "the way" at the end of that verse. Paul is saying that the restrainer, Michael, stands aside in the middle).

Daniel links Michael standing aside and the beginning of the unprecedented time of trouble to the middle of the week (Dan 12:1, 7).

Glory to Jesus Christ.

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Steve, I would have to see substantive support for your position also from the OT before I could consider it.  That is the standard (two witnesses) set in scripture and the standard affirmed by the Bereans.

the great tribulation proper is indeed the 2nd half of the 70th week / 7 years. That really is not in dispute.  The only issue is when and what starts the 7 years.

 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, Jesus ties the events which serve as signs of His coming (parousia = arrival and continuing presence) to the last of Daniel's seventy weeks. Dan 9:27 says that "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". I understand the week to begin when the covenant (whatever that may be) is confirmed with many. All we are told about that covenant is that in the midst (middle) of the seven years, he (the confirmer of the covenant) will cause the cessation of the sacrifices and offerings through the defiling of the temple.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This defiling of the temple Jesus called the abomination of desolation and it begins the great tribulation in the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21)

Glory to Jesus Christ

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, can you provide even one verse that says that the saints (of any type) are experiencing the tribulation you describe in the first half of the week.

Rev 13:5 - The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 months.  v.3 One of heads of the beast seemed to have a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.  The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. First 42 months, the beast who makes a 7 year agreement, is the one who sets up the A/D.  He allows animal sacrifices for Israel, and he ends them.  Rev 6:3 - When the Lamb opened the 2nd Seal.... Another rider came out, a fiery red one.  Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other.

 

Jesus, referencing Daniel, links the start of the great tribulation to the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27).

True, after the A/D is set up, but His, Gods Wrath follows later into the Week.

John links the beginning of the great wrath of the Devil toward Israel and Christians to the middle of the week (Rev 12:7-17).

True, I agree to a point.  This is toward Israel, and their offspring (not Christians), we are not the offspring of Israel, We do not have any land as our inheritance.

Paul links the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) to the middle of the week (2Thes 2:7). ("Mesos" which means middle was translated "the way" at the end of that verse. Paul is saying that the restrainer, Michael, stands aside in the middle).

False, how can the man of sin appear mid week, if he is the one who makes the 7 year agreement and then is the one who sets up the A/D.  Michael is not the Restrainer, and Paul does not support this theory.

Daniel links Michael standing aside and the beginning of the unprecedented time of trouble to the middle of the week (Dan 12:1, 7).

True, and Michael is the protector of Israel.  The Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ are our protectors.

Glory to Jesus Christ.

My comments in red above.

All praise to God the Father and Jesus Christ His son.  Your flowery intros and ends do not make what you say accurate.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OldCoot]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, Jesus ties the events which serve as signs of His coming (parousia = arrival and continuing presence) to the last of Daniel's seventy weeks. Dan 9:27 says that "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". I understand the week to begin when the covenant (whatever that may be) is confirmed with many. All we are told about that covenant is that in the midst (middle) of the seven years, he (the confirmer of the covenant) will cause the cessation of the sacrifices and offerings through the defiling of the temple.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This defiling of the temple Jesus called the abomination of desolation and it begins the great tribulation in the middle of the week (Matt 24:15, 21)

Glory to Jesus Christ

Steve, I really think we are traveling in the same direction just reading different road maps.

The covenant does indeed start the 70th week of Daniel.  I see that as happening just after the 4th seal which seems to jive with Isaiah 28:14-15.  Both the 4th seal of Revelation and Isaiah 28:14-15 talk about death and sheol / hades.  In both of these passages, a scourge is occurring on the earth.  Both are set in latter days.  To avoid being a part of that scourge, Israel makes a pact/covenant with death and sheol/hades according to Isaiah 28.

Everyone has speculated what covenant is being confirmed in Daniel 9:27, well, Isaiah 28:14-15 in conjunction with Seal 4 in Revelation 6:7-8 seems to show what that covenant is.... the covenant with death and sheol/hades to be protected from the scourge that they are bringing about.  And it is that covenant that is confirmed by the antichrist, which is the actual start of the 70th week / 7 years.  That interlude sets the stage for the 144,000 being separated out and the two witnesses to kick it into high gear.

Part of that scourge referenced in Isaiah 28 in conjunction with the 4th seal is a massive kill off of those that have placed their trust in Yeshua.  That is what seal 5 talks about, and I believe the 5th seal is riding right on the heels of the 4th seal.  The 6th seal on is definitely the 70th week.  In some respects, it is probable that there is some overlap in one seal starting before the previous has completed. 

The two witnesses start their activity at the confirmation of that covenant.  Since those two witnesses are operating directly with the power and authority of God, one would have a tough row to hoe trying to prove that God's wrath hasn't started at that point.

And the two witnesses will be doing their thing to tick everyone off from the time of the covenant being confirmed until the mid point when the antichrist will break the covenant per Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18, which I believe is triggered at the death of the two witnesses.  And then the bottom drops out.  The GT then goes into full swing at the mid point and those in the Land will hightail it out of Jerusalem as Yeshua said to do in Matthew 24:15-16.  Probably over the 2 days the witnesses are lying in the street and everyone's focus is on them and the antichrist desecrating the temple.

There is no doubt anymore that they will become aware of their sin of rejecting the true Messiah, Yeshua, and turn to Him and petition His return to rescue them, as stated in Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 and affirmed by Yeshua is Matthew 23:39. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by OldCoot