The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[n2thelight]

3 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Pretty sure LD separates the two as distinct periods, not equivalent to each other. I think he was making specific point.

Thanks,reading back I see..

Edited July 5, 2018 by n2thelight

[enoob57]

14 hours ago, Diaste said:

So if it's true the entire 'tribulation' is the wrath of God, do you realize it means that God's own hand would be murdering His martyrs?

The fifth seal:

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood...

So God, in His wrath, killed those who held the word of God? These slain under the altar are asking God to avenge them. On whom? Are they asking for God to avenge them on God?

 

You realize they are there because 1. They rejected Jesus and was not removed from God's wrath of tribulation (or) 2. They were not careful with the Scriptures and added to what was written even though God warned them not to!

Rev 22:18-20

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
KJV
 

[enoob57]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

You have correctly identified the beginning of the time of God's judgment / wrath with this verse, however, you have extracted it from its context which is very important.  The context is the opening of the sixth seal.  The judgment / wrath of God begins just after the the sixth seal is opened.  The sixth seal is opened after what Jesus describes as the time of great tribulation, the tribulation of those days.  So, if we follow the sequencing of the seals, there is a time of great tribulation (5th seal martyrdom) which is followed by the time of the judgment / wrath of God which follows the sixth seal.

Granted, it will be a difficult time.  That does not of necessity make it the wrath of God.  Those "descriptive" words are a conflation of wrath and tribulation.  Since you've correctly identified when God's judgment / wrath begins, can you find what actually contains His wrath?

Actually an in depth study reveals to us God's judgment started when God takes His children out of the world

Rom 1:18-2:1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
KJV
According to God's defined wrath of giving up or giving over to …
this is where the wrath of God actually begins:

Rev 4:1-2

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
KJV

this is the rapture of The Church explicit to God giving over the world to the start of His Wrath
 

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Glad we can agree on something. Now we know from the Lord that we will have trouble, etc from the world (system/ anti-God), however in the time of God`s judgment upon the rebellious, we see that it is God`s wrath and vengeance poured out.

You mentioned looking at WHEN that starts, and I would draw your attention to the bowls of wrath, -

`....Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them THE WRATH OF GOD IS COMPLETE.` (Rev. 15: 1)

These are the 7 last plagues, others have gone before them, and they will COMPLETE God`s wrath, judgment upon the rebellious. These bowls are not just the wrath BUT the COMPLETION of all the wrath/judgment that has gone before.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I agree that the bowls contain the wrath of God, but when does His time of judgment / wrath begin?

• I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood.  And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:12,16

His judgment / wrath begins after the sixth seal is opened.  What comes after the sixth seal?  The seven plagues of the seventh seal.  What comes before the sixth seal?  The time of great tribulation of the fifth seal.

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

You are correct, the martyrs will be killed because of their faith in God and their testimony.

What you and many others fail to understand is the natural conclusion of the pretrib doctrine in this particular area. Pretrib doctrine equates the entire 70th week with God's wrath. They call it the 'Tribulation Period' and associate the entire time period of 7 years with the the wrath of God, going so far as to unequivocally state the 70th week is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is ordered by the Father, and administered by the Lamb of God; and it is by their power and authority and overt actions that this wrath falls upon the earth.

If that's true the doctrine struggles with what I said and what you quoted, "So if it's true the entire 'tribulation' is the wrath of God, do you realize it means that God's own hand would be murdering His martyrs?"

It's obvious nonsense but this is one inescapable conclusion if all the calamities of the 70th week are meted out by the hand of God, as Pretrib doctrine declares.

Another problem is the martyrs asking for revenge. If they died during the wrath of God then they are looking for vengeance against God if the Pretrib doctrine is correct. 

"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood..."

It's pretty obvious the day of judgment and vengeance has not yet come as the martyrs are asking, "When?" 

But the martyrs finish the request for vengeance by specifically identifying the guilty, "...on those who dwell on the earth?" It's also clear mankind is the perpetrator of the horrors committed on the martyrs, and it is on mankind the martyrs request for vengeance must fall. Again showing the wrath of God is coming but is not yet here. 

In the same vein Pretrib has another problem if the entire 70th week is God's wrath, to wit; if these same martyrs under the altar have been killed during the last week, and they are newly born again in the blood of the Lamb after the Pretrib rapture, then these brand new believers had to immediately endure the wrath of the one who just saved them. Another inescapable conclusion of the Pretrib doctrine, and patently ridiculous.

Here's the reconciliation for the above contradictions; The wrath of God begins at the 6th seal as it is written, and not before, deep into the end of the age, after the reign of the terrible beast. This means Pretrib cannot hold to the idea the entire last week is tantamount to God's wrath. It is true we are not appointed to wrath. The believer will not see the wrath of God. God does not say we won't be tried, tested, refined or punished.

Peter says it best.

"17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” 1 Peter 4

Prepare your hearts. The congregation is about to be tested.

 

A well thought-out rebuttal that shows the fallacy of a key pretrib premise.

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Why do you feel the trib is God's wrath?

That wasn't originally my statement.  I was quoting it.

[Last Daze]

42 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Actually an in depth study reveals to us God's judgment started when God takes His children out of the world

Rom 1:18-2:1

According to God's defined wrath of giving up or giving over to …
this is where the wrath of God actually begins:

Rev 4:1-2

this is the rapture of The Church explicit to God giving over the world to the start of His Wrath
 

I will take what's plainly stated at the sixth seal over an "in-depth" study.

• For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:17

That's when God's judgment / wrath starts, after the sixth seal is opened.

[enoob57]

7 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I will take what's plainly stated at the sixth seal over an "in-depth" study.

• For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:17

That's when God's judgment / wrath starts, after the sixth seal is opened.

God says we are to take the entire Scripture to be sure of Scriptures context...

Isa 28:10

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
KJV

disobedience to God's Word can be found when the whole is not examined for this promise to be fulfilled

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

note the promise hinges on the entirety of Scriptures...

so based on this truth of study to show oneself approved you are ignoring what God teaches about His Wrath in other places in Scripture... and that is error!

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by enoob57

[Last Daze]

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

God says we are to take the entire Scripture to be sure of Scriptures context...

Isa 28:10

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
KJV

disobedience to God's Word can be found when the whole is not examined for this promise to be fulfilled

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

note the promise hinges on the entirety of Scriptures...

I agree.

[enoob57]

Then you realize, according to God that His wrath begins, by separating Himself from that which He has wrath with?