The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Alan Hales]

23 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes, that's what I said, the term comes from the Latin. It DOES NOT appear in what we all recognize as holy writ. 

There is a catching away, a snatching up, a gathering of the elect; the concept is real, the term 'rapture' is not.

This is the problem, isn't it? You didn't read a single word. If you did you would have seen I said this.

But you didn't read the post did you? You probably just skimmed to find the trigger points that would raise some sense of self righteous indignation, simply because of your parties dogma, all the while showing a failure in comprehension.

I bet this applies to scripture as well, if you read scripture at all. You likely read party propaganda and diligently attend the meetings but avoid the scriptural study. Maybe that's all true. Maybe not. But that's the way I see it.

Yes Virginia, there is a 'rapture', it's the timing of that 'rapture' you fail to discern.

The term "Rapture" is real, It means a taking away, it comes from the Latin, "Raptura" which comes from the Greek, "Harpazo", which takes place before the great tribulation period.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Alan Hales

[Diaste]

On 10/25/2018 at 4:11 AM, Alan Hales said:

The term "Rapture" is real, It means a taking away, it comes from the Latin, "Raptura" which comes from the Greek, "Harpazo", which takes place before the great tribulation period.

In any case, when you see the beast rise and hear the trumps sound, you'll remember my words. Find me and I'll help you to understand and get through the times.

[Alan Hales]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

In any case, when you see the beast rise and hear the trumps sound, you'll remember my words. Find me and I'll help you to understand and get through the times.

The only trumpet that I will hear while I'm on the earth, Is the trumpet that sounds the pre tribulation rapture. 1 Cor 15: 51--52. The Church is in heaven before the FIRST trumpet in the book of Revelation sounds. And I won't see the beast come. It's quite obvious that you don't know anything about the end times.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Alan Hales said:

The only trumpet that I will hear while I'm on the earth, Is the trumpet that sounds the pre tribulation rapture. 1 Cor 15: 51--52. The Church is in heaven before the FIRST trumpet in the book of Revelation sounds. And I won't see the beast come. It's quite obvious that you don't know anything about the end times.

Just remember what I said.

[Steve Conley]

On 10/17/2018 at 5:36 AM, Alan Hales said:

No one can provide chapter or verse that mention the Church going through  the great tribulation period, Because there isn't any.

You have admitted that you once believed the Biblical truth, But now you DON'T. You have accepted the devils lies, and call Jesus and Paul liars.

You can't give ONE scripture to back your erroneous belief up, And I can provide lots of scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, the axiom "none are so blind as they who will not see" appears to fit your determined effort to hold onto an eschatological system that has been exposed as a great fraud.

Alan, the Emperor (pretribulationism) has no clothes. We have seen behind the curtain and all that is there is a little old man (no Biblical support for pretribulationism).

So, for the hundredth time let's look at the Scriptures to see what is said about the unprecedented persecution that will come upon the last generation of the church.

• Jesus warns us that prior to His coming we will face unprecedented violent persecution (Matt 24:9, 21). This unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation.
• Jesus begins to speak of the great tribulation in verse 9 of Matt 24, and continues to give details until verse 29 when He describes the cosmic sign which announces His impending arrival.
• Verse 9 identifies the cause of the persecution as being for Christ's name's sake.
• Three times in the text Christ identifies those being persecuted as the elect (Matt 24:22, 24, 31).
• The elect are distinguished from unbelieving Israel by Paul (Rom 11:7).
• All throughout the NT the church is called the elect.
• The disciples that Jesus was giving an answer to were the founding members of the church (Eph 2:20).
• He told these same disciples the very same week that if He went away He would come again and receive them unto Himself that where He is they could be also (John 14:3).
• The disciples asked Him concerning the end of the age and He said that He would be with them in the making of disciples until the end of the age (Matt 24:3; 28:20).
• Christ said that before His arrival the persecution that His followers have been accustomed to would reach an unprecedented level of violence, so much so, that He says that if those days were not shortened, none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22).

Paul says that the church will rest from being persecuted (trouble) when Christ is revealed with the mighty angels taking vengeance upon the unbelievers who had been persecuting them.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

• The subjects in context of 2Thes 2:6-10 are believers in the "church age".
• These believers are experiencing persecution at the hands of those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• These unbelievers are those who take the mark and worship the Beast, those unbelieving who are alive at Christ's revelation.
• Paul says the tables will be turned when Christ is revealed. At that time the church will have rest from persecution and those who persecuted us will be tribulated by the Lord.
• Paul's statement is consistent with Christ's narrative of the days which precede His coming.

According to Jesus, it is His arrival and the catching up of the elect which effectively ends the unprecedented persecution.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

• The cosmic sign, which portends Christ's arrival and the wrath of God on the day of the Lord, takes place.
• Then Christ and the Holy angels are revealed in the clouds for all the world to see.
• Then the resurrection/change takes place followed by the catching up (rapture) by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds.
• Then later the same day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth-dwellers (Luke 17:26-30; Rev 8).

Paul says the church rests from persecution at Christ's revelation. Jesus says that the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution upon the elect) ends at Christ's revelation. In comparison, we see that the elect of Matt 24 are the church. It is the Church and Israel that is the focus of Satan's wrath in the great tribulation.

Again, I have demonstrated that both Jesus and Paul say that we will experience the great tribulation before we are raptured to escape God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

[Montana Marv]

48 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, the axiom "none are so blind as they who will not see" appears to fit your determined effort to hold onto an eschatological system that has been exposed as a great fraud.

Alan, the Emperor (pretribulationism) has no clothes. We have seen behind the curtain and all that is there is a little old man (no Biblical support for pretribulationism).

So, for the hundredth time let's look at the Scriptures to see what is said about the unprecedented persecution that will come upon the last generation of the church.

• Jesus warns us that prior to His coming we will face unprecedented violent persecution (Matt 24:9, 21). This unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation.
• Jesus begins to speak of the great tribulation in verse 9 of Matt 24, and continues to give details until verse 29 when He describes the cosmic sign which announces His impending arrival.
• Verse 9 identifies the cause of the persecution as being for Christ's name's sake.
• Three times in the text Christ identifies those being persecuted as the elect (Matt 24:22, 24, 31).
• The elect are distinguished from unbelieving Israel by Paul (Rom 11:7).
• All throughout the NT the church is called the elect.
• The disciples that Jesus was giving an answer to were the founding members of the church (Eph 2:20).
• He told these same disciples the very same week that if He went away He would come again and receive them unto Himself that where He is they could be also (John 14:3).
• The disciples asked Him concerning the end of the age and He said that He would be with them in the making of disciples until the end of the age (Matt 24:3; 28:20).
• Christ said that before His arrival the persecution that His followers have been accustomed to would reach an unprecedented level of violence, so much so, that He says that if those days were not shortened, none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22).

Paul says that the church will rest from being persecuted (trouble) when Christ is revealed with the mighty angels taking vengeance upon the unbelievers who had been persecuting them.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

• The subjects in context of 2Thes 2:6-10 are believers in the "church age".
• These believers are experiencing persecution at the hands of those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• These unbelievers are those who take the mark and worship the Beast, those unbelieving who are alive at Christ's revelation.
• Paul says the tables will be turned when Christ is revealed. At that time the church will have rest from persecution and those who persecuted us will be tribulated by the Lord.
• Paul's statement is consistent with Christ's narrative of the days which precede His coming.

According to Jesus, it is His arrival and the catching up of the elect which effectively ends the unprecedented persecution.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

• The cosmic sign, which portends Christ's arrival and the wrath of God on the day of the Lord, takes place.
• Then Christ and the Holy angels are revealed in the clouds for all the world to see.
• Then the resurrection/change takes place followed by the catching up (rapture) by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds.
• Then later the same day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth-dwellers (Luke 17:26-30; Rev 8).

Paul says the church rests from persecution at Christ's revelation. Jesus says that the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution upon the elect) ends at Christ's revelation. In comparison, we see that the elect of Matt 24 are the church. It is the Church and Israel that is the focus of Satan's wrath in the great tribulation.

Again, I have demonstrated that both Jesus and Paul say that we will experience the great tribulation before we are raptured to escape God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

How can some of the Bride just receive tribulation, ongoing for 2000 years. This includes all.  And yet others of the Bride must receive great tribulation. Only doing the last 3 1/2 years. Are there two Brides.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Alan Hales]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Just remember what I said.

I won't remember what you said, It's you who will know that I'm right and your are wrong.

[Alan Hales]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, the axiom "none are so blind as they who will not see" appears to fit your determined effort to hold onto an eschatological system that has been exposed as a great fraud.

Alan, the Emperor (pretribulationism) has no clothes. We have seen behind the curtain and all that is there is a little old man (no Biblical support for pretribulationism).

So, for the hundredth time let's look at the Scriptures to see what is said about the unprecedented persecution that will come upon the last generation of the church.

• Jesus warns us that prior to His coming we will face unprecedented violent persecution (Matt 24:9, 21). This unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation.
• Jesus begins to speak of the great tribulation in verse 9 of Matt 24, and continues to give details until verse 29 when He describes the cosmic sign which announces His impending arrival.
• Verse 9 identifies the cause of the persecution as being for Christ's name's sake.
• Three times in the text Christ identifies those being persecuted as the elect (Matt 24:22, 24, 31).
• The elect are distinguished from unbelieving Israel by Paul (Rom 11:7).
• All throughout the NT the church is called the elect.
• The disciples that Jesus was giving an answer to were the founding members of the church (Eph 2:20).
• He told these same disciples the very same week that if He went away He would come again and receive them unto Himself that where He is they could be also (John 14:3).
• The disciples asked Him concerning the end of the age and He said that He would be with them in the making of disciples until the end of the age (Matt 24:3; 28:20).
• Christ said that before His arrival the persecution that His followers have been accustomed to would reach an unprecedented level of violence, so much so, that He says that if those days were not shortened, none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22).

Paul says that the church will rest from being persecuted (trouble) when Christ is revealed with the mighty angels taking vengeance upon the unbelievers who had been persecuting them.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

• The subjects in context of 2Thes 2:6-10 are believers in the "church age".
• These believers are experiencing persecution at the hands of those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
• These unbelievers are those who take the mark and worship the Beast, those unbelieving who are alive at Christ's revelation.
• Paul says the tables will be turned when Christ is revealed. At that time the church will have rest from persecution and those who persecuted us will be tribulated by the Lord.
• Paul's statement is consistent with Christ's narrative of the days which precede His coming.

According to Jesus, it is His arrival and the catching up of the elect which effectively ends the unprecedented persecution.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

• The cosmic sign, which portends Christ's arrival and the wrath of God on the day of the Lord, takes place.
• Then Christ and the Holy angels are revealed in the clouds for all the world to see.
• Then the resurrection/change takes place followed by the catching up (rapture) by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds.
• Then later the same day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth-dwellers (Luke 17:26-30; Rev 8).

Paul says the church rests from persecution at Christ's revelation. Jesus says that the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution upon the elect) ends at Christ's revelation. In comparison, we see that the elect of Matt 24 are the church. It is the Church and Israel that is the focus of Satan's wrath in the great tribulation.

Again, I have demonstrated that both Jesus and Paul say that we will experience the great tribulation before we are raptured to escape God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

You are showing your Biblical ignorance, Twisting the scriptures, and calling Jesus and Paul liars. You have got the "Elect Jews" Matt 24, Mixed up with the "Elect Church". Both Jesus and Paul said the Church WON'T go through the great tribulation period, Yet you sat we do. I will believe Jesus and you can believe your lies, and twisted scriptures. Nowhere doe the Bible say the Church goes through the great tribulation.

 

You HAVEN'T demonstrated that we will go through the tribulation, You HAVE twisted the scriptures and given your own opinions. And You CANNOT build a doctrine on own opinions and twisted scriptures.  At the pre trib rapture, Jesus comes for His people, whereas after the tribulation, Jesus sends Angels to gather His people, [The elect Jews and those who get saved during the tribulation period]. Two different events.

And Another fact, Before the tribulation, the Church goes to heaven, And after the tribulation, The Church comes back from heaven.. Don't you ever read the Bible??.

[Last Daze]

27 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

I won't remember what you said, It's you who will know that I'm right and your are wrong.

Actually, when it's all said and done, it won't matter who's right and who's wrong, only who was ready and who wasn't.

• "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.  It is like a man away on a journey, whoupon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.  Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”  Mark 13:33-36

It won't do any good to be "right" if you're not ready.  Priorities.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

I won't remember what you said, It's you who will know that I'm right and your are wrong.

You will remember that I said:

The beast will rise first.

A great deal of conflict will occur while the Temple is rebuilt.

The beast will sit in the Temple and proclaim himself to be god.

Great tribulation through the test of the mark of the beast will begin.

Jesus will return after this and put a stop to those days and gather us all up to meet Him.

And we will see it all.

As scripture teaches.