Church of Christ? What do you think?

[Willa]

1 hour ago, DWH2003 said:

John 15:3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.

I agree they were already clean because of the word.  What word was that?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus spoke of a (singular) new birth.  That new birth involves water & the Spirit.  The Spirit's work was to reveal & confirm truth (John 16:13; Mark 16:20).  Thus, "the Spirit" involves God's word, which produces faith (Romans 10:17).  What is water?  The only NT command involving water is water baptism into Christ (Acts 2:38; Acts 10-11).

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jesus required His disciples to be baptized (John 4:1-2).

 

By the time Jesus announced to the 12 that they were clean, they had already trusted Him enough to do what He said to become clean.

Joh 3:3  ESV Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Joh 3:4  Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:7  Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

In context the first birth  of water is natural birth of a mother's womb, so it is not speaking of baptism here.   This verse is often quoted out of context and without enlightenment as a proof text of baptism.  

Joh 4:1  Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John  Joh 4:2  (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

This text only proves that the disciples were baptizing those who were coming to follow Jesus.  I am sure that they were baptized, but your proof texts are not saying the things you claim they are saying.

[Still Alive]

On 8/21/2018 at 11:37 PM, Jayne said:

Not every Church of Christ believes the same thing or is the same "Church of Christ". 

In my area, the various Church of Christ groups differ from Baptist in that they do not believe in musical instruments in the worship service...

I'm a bass player. I can't take them seriously because of this. And it's not really just because I'm a bass player. It's just the whole concept of coming up with these silly rules (and this one is silly) out of whole cloth.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Still Alive

[Fidei Defensor]

15 hours ago, Knowingtruth said:

Neither Paul not Peter claimed that Paul wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit

Actually they both did claim the Spirit wrote the Scriptures: 

Apostle Paul: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16)

Apostle Peter: “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lightshining in a dark place, until the day dawnsand the morning star rises in your hearts.20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:19-21).

Proof The Scriptures are New Testament: 

“For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

Other verses: 

”For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.“ (Romans 15:4) 

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)

[Jayne]

47 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I'm a bass player. I can't take them seriously because of this. And it's not really just because I'm a bass player. It's just the whole concept of coming up with these silly rules (and this one is silly) out of whole cloth.

I've been a church musician for 40  years.  I can't imagine no music in the service.

The odd thing to me, and I don't mean to criticize in a mean way, is that my local Church of Christ will use tapes and cds for soloists, but no live instruments.  I don't understand that distinction.

[other one]

2 hours ago, Jayne said:

I've been a church musician for 40  years.  I can't imagine no music in the service.

The odd thing to me, and I don't mean to criticize in a mean way, is that my local Church of Christ will use tapes and cds for soloists, but no live instruments.  I don't understand that distinction.

that is interesting....   I've never heard of a CoC that would even use tapes...     I don't understand it either....   maybe they are drifting to slowly change their policies.

[other one]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

I'm a bass player. I can't take them seriously because of this. And it's not really just because I'm a bass player. It's just the whole concept of coming up with these silly rules (and this one is silly) out of whole cloth.

there is more than just musical instruments tied up in their thinking.....    in the church service they don't do anything that they don't find in the New Testament....  they don't see musical instruments so none in their church...    they do have logical reasoning, even though I don't really agree with it.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

As those that refrained from certain meats, and made a big deal out of which day to Sabbath, I think they are the types of Believers that Paul would refer to as “weak” Christians.We are to endure them, as silly as they seem to some of us.

[DWH2003]

17 hours ago, Willa said:

Joh 3:3  ESV Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Joh 3:4  Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:7  Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

In context the first birth  of water is natural birth of a mother's womb, so it is not speaking of baptism here.   This verse is often quoted out of context and without enlightenment as a proof text of baptism.  

Joh 4:1  Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John  Joh 4:2  (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

This text only proves that the disciples were baptizing those who were coming to follow Jesus.  I am sure that they were baptized, but your proof texts are not saying the things you claim they are saying.

Hello Willa,

TY for responding.  Please consider this:

John 3:3 Jesus spoke of one, singular birth.

John 3:4 Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus said.  Nicodemus got hung up on physical birth.  Ironically, you are doing the same thing.

John 3:5, Jesus explains the one, singular birth again.  The new birth (singular) involves two elements water & Spirit.  We know these are two elements of the one, new birth because Jesus is still speaking only of one birth in connection with entering the (spiritual) kingdom.  Nicodemus misunderstood it, Jesus elaborated on it.

John 3:6-7  Jesus here makes a stark contrast between the fleshly birth that Nicodemus incorrectly mentioned and the spiritual new birth (singular).  Flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit. They are distinctly different!  Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he is wrong to think of the physical birth as what Jesus is saying.  Nicodemus brought up the physical birth (like you do) and was wrong.  Jesus is identifying, describing & illustrating the new birth, spiritual birth, being born again.

 

---

As for John 4:1-2, do you understand what a necessary inference is?

v. 1 "Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John"

Jesus made disciples through baptism.  The text states this.

v. 2"(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),"

The disciples (who were baptized) were used to carry out all of the baptisms.  The text says so.

It is no assumption or presumption, but the stated fact:  If they were disciples, they were baptized.  And, if they were not baptized, they were not disciples.

Edited August 28, 2018 by DWH2003

[Still Alive]

16 hours ago, Jayne said:

I've been a church musician for 40  years.  I can't imagine no music in the service.

The odd thing to me, and I don't mean to criticize in a mean way, is that my local Church of Christ will use tapes and cds for soloists, but no live instruments.  I don't understand that distinction.

Remnds me of a devout Jewish friend of mine that used to tell me how they circumvented the sabbath rules. They were allowed to go a days journey on foot, but not allowed to turn on a light or a TV. So they had this elaborate remote timer setup. 

No wonder so many intellectuals laugh at Christians, Jews, etc. We give them reason. And the reasons we give are not from God. Rather, they are the traditions of man.

[Alan Hales]

On ‎8‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:19 AM, Christiangal said:

Hi guys. So I went to a Church of Christ event. This is a very big church in every city in the world. They call themselves a non-denominational Church . I really enjoyed it. They had such fun stuff all the time. Then I find out that they believe that you get the Holy Spirit when you are water baptized. They take that verse in Acts literally, forgot which one. Anywho, I was thrown for a loop when they actually told me that I don’t have the Holy Spirit because I need to get water baptized first. So this stinks because I was enjoying all the fun events they have but does this mean I shouldn’t go to their church anymore?  Or is it ok for me to still go even though I know that their belief about water baptism is nonsense.....????

The Bible teaches the rebirth [Being born again], comes before water baptism. Jesus said, "He that believes and is baptised, Jesus put believing before baptism. The Jesus went on to say, He that doesn't believe is damned. Please note what Jesus didn't say, He didn't say, "He that isn't baptised shall be damned" Mk 16: 16. Paul in Acts 9: 6--17 was saved  for three day before has was baptised in the Holy Ghost, But He was baptised in the Holy Ghost, BEFORE he was baptised in water. The same with the Gentiles in Acts 10:44--47.  Acts 2: 38 is misleading, Because the actual Greek emphasis for "Remission of sins", is on the "Repenting", NOT on baptism in water, See Lk 24: 47, where Jesus said Repentance and remission should be preached. So this is the way the people would have heard and understood Peter in Acts 2: 38. "Repent for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, then, you can be baptised in water. That doesn't mean we have to be baptised in the Holy Ghost to be baptised in water, BUT we do have to be born again of the Holy Spirit before water baptism and the baptism in the Holy Ghost.