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JoeCanada

When do Revelations seals open

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27 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

1. In Rev. 4 we see the throne/authority of the glorified Lord Jesus given by the Father. When Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father `far above all` we know He was given all authority and power.....However the Father said for Him to sit at His right hand TILL His enemies are brought under His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1) This has yet to take place. From that place the Lord is interceding and building up His Body. He is operating in His High Priestly office.

Now we know that He also is a King, however it is not until His enemies are brought to His footstool, and the Father says, "Rule in the midst of your enemies!" that the Lord will then operate in His office as King.

Thus in Rev. 4 we see these two offices of the Lord, King (throne) and Priest, (gems stones of High Priest). We also see that it is the Father who undergirds this throne/authority. (Symbolic hand reaching out, as God is a Spirit).

2. Interesting observation. Jesus we see is not in heaven or on the earth or under the earth BUT is in the midst of the Godhead, as He is deity and that is beyond the created order.  

3. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent so is everywhere.

Marilyn.

It is amazing to me when John looked into the throne room and Jesus was not there, that you could see all this - FAR more than John saw. 

Actually, there was 32 years out of eternities past to eternities future, that Jesus was NOT in the throne room, but on the earth or under the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room during that time when Jesus was not there.

As for the Holy Spirit, of course He is everywhere, but God had to show SOMETHING for John to see, for the bible tells us the Holy Spirit was sent down and here we see from WHERE He was sent down. But the fact remains, He was still there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5.

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19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is amazing to me when John looked into the throne room and Jesus was not there, that you could see all this - FAR more than John saw. 

Actually, there was 32 years out of eternities past to eternities future, that Jesus was NOT in the throne room, but on the earth or under the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room during that time when Jesus was not there.

As for the Holy Spirit, of course He is everywhere, but God had to show SOMETHING for John to see, for the bible tells us the Holy Spirit was sent down and here we see from WHERE He was sent down. But the fact remains, He was still there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5.

Hi iamlamad,

God the Father`s whole purpose is `that in all things He (Christ) may have pre-eminence.` (Col. 1: 18)

It is the Lord Himself who made all `thrones and dominions ...` for Himself. (Col. 1: 16)

Thus the most important throne that is SET in heaven, in the created order is thus the throne/authority appointed and anointed by the Father for His only Son!

Marilyn.

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30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is amazing to me when John looked into the throne room and Jesus was not there, that you could see all this - FAR more than John saw. 

Actually, there was 32 years out of eternities past to eternities future, that Jesus was NOT in the throne room, but on the earth or under the earth. John was seeing a vision of the throne room during that time when Jesus was not there.

As for the Holy Spirit, of course He is everywhere, but God had to show SOMETHING for John to see, for the bible tells us the Holy Spirit was sent down and here we see from WHERE He was sent down. But the fact remains, He was still there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5.

Hi iamlamad....

When scripture says that no one was 'found'.....I don't think it means that a search was underway, like someone was lost.

It means that no-one was ....declared, confirmed, validated, deemed.  But I think you already know that.

Even if a search was underway, why wasn't Jesus found? If He was on the earth, He should have been easily located.

And what about the length of time it would take to search heaven and earth and under the earth (graves)?  

No, I just don't buy this argument. 

He's there in Rev 4:8.... " Holy Holy Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (It's Jesus who's coming...Rev 22:20)

He's there in Rev 4:11...."for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (John 1:3)

Rev 4:11.

 

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Revelation 4:11 seems to have nothing to do with the rapture. Did I miss something?  Rev. 12 does show that he is caught up, but again, why was He NOT in the throne room in chapter 4: that is the question. 

Right, Rev 12:5 says we are caught up, and guess who we meet in the air in 1 Thess 4:17? Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev chapter 4 is describing the throne room in Rev 12:5. Iam, you're missing a big chunk here. Remember, Jesus remains in heaven until His Second Coming at the end of the 70th week, Rev 19:14. Where else would He be???

In Rev 4:11, the Greek actually says, "worthy are you the Lord and the God of us". The name Lord is given to Jesus, the name Abba Father is giving to God himself. When discussing the trinity you always say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, three persons.

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5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Right, Rev 12:5 says we are caught up, and guess who we meet in the air in 1 Thess 4:17? Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Hi Heb 13: 8,

Rev. 12: 5 is referring to the Lord  who is caught up - the male child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.` That has to do with Jesus the promised Child.

Jesus is the promised Son, the Child that Israel would bring forth to be the ruler of Israel & the kingdoms of the world.  (Isaiah 9: 6 & 7)

                                 `For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given;

                                     & the government will be upon His shoulder.....

                                     upon the throne of David & over His kingdom,.....

                                             from that time forward, even forever.`

                                                                                                      (Isaiah 9: 6 & 7)

 

Satan, through King Herod tried to kill Jesus when He was born.  (Matt. 2: 16)

           `Then being with child, she cried out in labour & in pain to give birth......

             And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth,

                                     to devour her Child as soon as it was born.`                                                                                                      

                                                                                                               (Rev. 12: 2 & 3)

 

Jesus was born of David`s line, in the nation of Israel. He is their Messiah but they did not receive Him. After His crucifixion & resurrection, He ascended into heaven & is seated at the right hand of the Father on His throne ready to `rule the nations with a rod of iron.` (Ps. 2: 9    Rev. 2: 27)

                `She bore a male Child who was to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

                             And her Child was caught up to God & His throne.`

                                                                                         (Rev. 12: 5)

 

Marilyn.                                                                                                                        

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8 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Right, Rev 12:5 says we are caught up, and guess who we meet in the air in 1 Thess 4:17? Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev chapter 4 is describing the throne room in Rev 12:5. Iam, you're missing a big chunk here. Remember, Jesus remains in heaven until His Second Coming at the end of the 70th week, Rev 19:14. Where else would He be???

In Rev 4:11, the Greek actually says, "worthy are you the Lord and the God of us". The name Lord is given to Jesus, the name Abba Father is giving to God himself. When discussing the trinity you always say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, three persons.

Sorry, but HE told me personally, Rev. 12:5 was HIM being caught up. That passage is a parenthesis about His birth and how the Dragon tried to kill him as a child - not about the church. Sorry, there is NO timing connection between Rev. 4 (a time before Christ rose) and Rev. 12:5 except Rev. 12:1-5 is His entire life on earth in one or two sentences. Somewhere between Him as a small child and His ascension back into heaven is that time in Rev. 4 before He rose from the dead. 

Rev. 4  through 5 is showing us a time just before He rose from the dead, to the very time He rose from the dead and then ascended. That IS the timing of these two chapters, to show us the correct timing of the first seal as first centuries.

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Heb 13: 8,

Rev. 12: 5 is referring to the Lord  who is caught up - the male child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.` That has to do with Jesus the promised Child.

Jesus is the promised Son, the Child that Israel would bring forth to be the ruler of Israel & the kingdoms of the world.  (Isaiah 9: 6 & 7)

                                 `For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given;

                                     & the government will be upon His shoulder.....

                                     upon the throne of David & over His kingdom,.....

                                             from that time forward, even forever.`

                                                                                                      (Isaiah 9: 6 & 7)

 

Satan, through King Herod tried to kill Jesus when He was born.  (Matt. 2: 16)

           `Then being with child, she cried out in labour & in pain to give birth......

             And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth,

                                     to devour her Child as soon as it was born.`                                                                                                      

                                                                                                               (Rev. 12: 2 & 3)

 

Jesus was born of David`s line, in the nation of Israel. He is their Messiah but they did not receive Him. After His crucifixion & resurrection, He ascended into heaven & is seated at the right hand of the Father on His throne ready to `rule the nations with a rod of iron.` (Ps. 2: 9    Rev. 2: 27)

                `She bore a male Child who was to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

                             And her Child was caught up to God & His throne.`

                                                                                         (Rev. 12: 5)

 

Marilyn.                                                                                                                        

RIGHT!

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad....

When scripture says that no one was 'found'.....I don't think it means that a search was underway, like someone was lost.

It means that no-one was ....declared, confirmed, validated, deemed.  But I think you already know that.

Even if a search was underway, why wasn't Jesus found? If He was on the earth, He should have been easily located.

And what about the length of time it would take to search heaven and earth and under the earth (graves)?  

No, I just don't buy this argument. 

He's there in Rev 4:8.... " Holy Holy Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (It's Jesus who's coming...Rev 22:20)

He's there in Rev 4:11...."for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" (John 1:3)

Rev 4:11.

Joe, I really expected you to know these things! 

What exactly was this search about? It was a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals - and it HAD to be a man - no angel could do this.  If we read ahead, we see that it had to be a man that had risen from the dead to become the Redeemer. In other words, in all of time, ONLY ONE MAN could ever be found worthy - but He could NOT be found worthy until He had risen from the dead.

The first search that ended in failure, is showing us TIMING: a time BEFORE He rose from the dead.  And the very reason John DID NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the Father in the throne room in chapter 4. He was still on earth or under the earth. 

Rev. 4:8 is the 4 Beasts prophesying.  Rev. 4:11 is worship to the Three in One God - even though Jesus was still on earth - now the 24 elders giving praise to God. Was it OK to praise God while Jesus was on earth? Of course it was OK! 

The truth is, He was NOT there until this verse in chapter 5:

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

He could not POSSIBLY be there (in person) until verse 5 took place, which shows us that He had just risen from the dead. HOW did He prevail? He rose from the dead under His own power. He said He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.  Then verse 6 shows us the moment He ascended into heaven - right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. 

This is truth, whether you "buy" it or not.

Added later: Sorry, did not answer one part: Yes, I DO believe a very intense search was ongoing, for one worthy to break the seals. At least this is what is portrayed. John wept much because this search he watched ended in failure. No man was found. It seems John knew how important it was to find someone worthy.  Now we can all learn why? If no one was ever found worthy, this world would remain under the authority of Satan, the god of this world. 

 

Edited by iamlamad

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18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

He did not want to start where they were in 95 AD  - which would have been at the 5th seal

If the 5th seal was opened on or before 95 AD, how do you interpret the opening of seals 2-4?  Was the 5th seal opened before Stephen was martyred in Acts 7?

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6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Heb 13: 8,

Rev. 12: 5 is referring to the Lord  who is caught up - the male child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.` That has to do with Jesus the promised Child.

Jesus is the promised Son, the Child that Israel would bring forth to be the ruler of Israel & the kingdoms of the world.  (Isaiah 9: 6 & 7)

                                 `For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given;

                                     & the government will be upon His shoulder.....

                                     upon the throne of David & over His kingdom,.....

                                             from that time forward, even forever.`

                                                                                                      (Isaiah 9: 6 & 7)

 

Satan, through King Herod tried to kill Jesus when He was born.  (Matt. 2: 16)

           `Then being with child, she cried out in labour & in pain to give birth......

             And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth,

                                     to devour her Child as soon as it was born.`                                                                                                      

                                                                                                               (Rev. 12: 2 & 3)

 

Jesus was born of David`s line, in the nation of Israel. He is their Messiah but they did not receive Him. After His crucifixion & resurrection, He ascended into heaven & is seated at the right hand of the Father on His throne ready to `rule the nations with a rod of iron.` (Ps. 2: 9    Rev. 2: 27)

                `She bore a male Child who was to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

                             And her Child was caught up to God & His throne.`

                                                                                         (Rev. 12: 5)

 

Marilyn.                                                                                                                        

No, Rev 12:5 the word harpazo is meant for the church. The church will actually rule with Christ with a rod of iron, Rev 2:26-27.

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