Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
JoeCanada

The Timing of Christ's Return & Why it Matters

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

So, Jesus gets 1/2 a bride up front and the other half 1000 years later?  I don't think so.

That is a silly statement if there ever was one.  Now the discussion has become ridiculous.  If the bride is only the city, then when does the marriage take place, how does Yeshua betroth a city? How is the marriage consummated, how does Yeshua consummate a marriage with a city?  Where does the marriage take place?  And then, when is the marriage feast/banquet take place and where?   A city might be a place to have a banquet, but I have never heard or read of a city being the honored party to a banquet and participating in a banquet.  Yeshua brought all these allusions out.  The ancient Jewish marriage is the model for all of this.  The example of Avraham, Yitzhak, Rivkah, and the servent support this.  You just haven't actually taken into yourself the words that Yeshua and the scriptures spoke on this.   Might be wise to do so.

Edited by OldCoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

That is a silly statement if there ever was one.  Now the discussion has become ridiculous.  If the bride is only the city, then when does the marriage take place, how does Yeshua betroth a city? How is the marriage consummated, how does Yeshua consummate a marriage with a city?  Where does the marriage take place?  And then, when is the marriage feast/banquet take place and where?   A city might be a place to have a banquet, but I have never heard or read of a city being the honored party to a banquet and participating in a banquet.  Yeshua brought all these allusions out.  The ancient Jewish marriage is the model for all of this.  The example of Avraham, Yitzhak, Rivkah, and the servent support this.  You just haven't actually taken into yourself the words that Yeshua and the scriptures spoke on this.   Might be wise to do so.

I'm glad you can see how silly it it.  Let's remove the fog of dispensationalism and that should take care of the silliness.

  • The bride of Christ is made up of both OT and NT believers.  That much is plainly stated in Revelation 21.
  • New covenant saints would not even exist if it weren't for the promises made to the old covenant saints.  Old covenant saints aren't completed without the new covenant saints fulfilling those promises.  This is a principle that is explained in Hebrews 11 and stated in verses 39 & 40.  OT believers and NT believers together are a completed, perfect entity.  This relationship between OT prophets & NT saints can also be seen in 1 Peter 1:10-12
  • The church of Jesus Christ is made up of OT and NT believers.  When Jesus returns, His church will be made immortal.  This includes both OT and NT saints since they both belong to Christ through faith.  This is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:23
  • Christ is married to both the OT & NT saints together, when He returns.  They complete each other.  The OT saints don't get incorporated into the bride at some later point.
  • The New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 is the fully adorned bride.  It includes the righteous of the millennial kingdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest 1sheep
48 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'm glad you can see how silly it it.  Let's remove the fog of dispensationalism and that should take care of the silliness.

  • The bride of Christ is made up of both OT and NT believers.  That much is plainly stated in Revelation 21.
  • New covenant saints would not even exist if it weren't for the promises made to the old covenant saints.  Old covenant saints aren't completed without the new covenant saints fulfilling those promises.  This is a principle that is explained in Hebrews 11 and stated in verses 39 & 40.  OT believers and NT believers together are a completed, perfect entity.  This relationship between OT prophets & NT saints can also be seen in 1 Peter 1:10-12
  • The church of Jesus Christ is made up of OT and NT believers.  When Jesus returns, His church will be made immortal.  This includes both OT and NT saints since they both belong to Christ through faith.  This is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:23
  • Christ is married to both the OT & NT saints together, when He returns.  They complete each other.  The OT saints don't get incorporated into the bride at some later point.
  • The New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 is the fully adorned bride.  It includes the righteous of the millennial kingdom.

OT saints werent completed until the propitation Christ provided. NT saints have nothing to do with it. You cant find your theory anywhere in Gods word. A vine is complete of itself. G rafting in something doesnt make it more complete!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, 1sheep said:

OT saints werent completed until the propitation Christ provided. NT saints have nothing to do with it. You cant find your theory anywhere in Gods word. A vine is complete of itself. G rafting in something doesnt make it more complete!

It's not my theory, its scripture.  Have you read Hebrews 11?

You're saying NT saints have nothing to do with the promise made to Abraham?  Better check again.  Have you ever heard of the times of the Gentiles?  If you're going to make statements like you do, please support them with scripture.  I'm not interested in the doctrines of men.  Did you even bother to check the references I listed?  What does this verses mean to you?

  • And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.  Hebrews 11:39-40
  • Brilliant! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

So, Jesus gets 1/2 a bride up front and the other half 1000 years later?  I don't think so.

Rev 21:3b - Now the dwelling of God is with men,  and He will live with them, they will be His people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.  This place is the New Jerusalem, this is the dwelling place of God.  We will be occupants in this city.  This city has gates, therefore people go in and out of this structure.  Because this is the case, we are not this city.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest 1sheep
54 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

It's not my theory, its scripture.  Have you read Hebrews 11?

You're saying NT saints have nothing to do with the promise made to Abraham?  Better check again.  Have you ever heard of the times of the Gentiles?  If you're going to make statements like you do, please support them with scripture.  I'm not interested in the doctrines of men.  Did you even bother to check the references I listed?  What does this verses mean to you?

  • And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.  Hebrews 11:39-40

Read and learn!

Matthew Henry

Commentary on Hebrews 11:39,40

(Read Hebrews 11:39,40)

The world considers that the righteous are not worthy to live in the world, and God declares the world is not worthy of them. Though the righteous and the worldlings widely differ in their judgment, they agree in this, it is not fit that good men should have their rest in this world. Therefore God receives them out of it. The apostle tells the Hebrews, that God had provided some better things for them, therefore they might be sure that he expected as good things from them. As our advantages, with the better things God has provided for us, are so much beyond theirs, so should our obedience of faith, patience of hope, and labour of love, be greater. And unless we get true faith as these believers had, they will rise up to condemn us at the last day. Let us then pray continually for the increase of our faith, that we may follow these bright examples, and be, with them, at length made perfect in holiness and happiness, and shine like the sun in the kingdom of our Father for evermore.

John Gills:

Hebrews 11:39

And these all having obtained a good report through faith,
&c.] This may either be limited to the sufferers in the preceding verses, who were martyred, or suffered martyrdom for the faith, as the words may be rendered; and who are called martyrs or witnesses, in ( Hebrews 12:1 ) and so the Ethiopic version renders the clause, "and all these were witnesses concerning the faith": or it may be extended to all the instances of faith throughout the chapter; and so the apostle reasserts what he had said, ( Hebrews 11:2 ) , having proved it by a variety of examples; (See Gill on Hebrews 11:2).

received not the promise;
not that they did not receive the promise of the land of Canaan, for so did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses nor that they did not receive the promise of deliverance and victory, for so did Joshua, the Judges, and others; or that they did not receive the promise of eternal life, for that they all did; but the promise of the Messiah, that is, the Messiah promised: for they had the promise, but not the thing; who is called "the Promise", emphatically, because he is the first and grand promise; and because in him all the promises centre, and are yea, and amen: him the Old Testament saints received not; they, greatly desired to see him in the flesh; they saw him by faith; they believed in him, and rejoiced in the expectation of his coming; but he was not exhibited to them incarnate. Now since these saints so strongly believed, and so cheerfully suffered before Christ came; the apostle's argument is, that much more should the saints now, since Christ is come, and the promises received, go on believing in him, and readily suffering for his sake; see ( Hebrews 12:1-4 ) .

Bible Study Tools
 
 

Hebrews 11:40

Hebrews 11:40

God having provided some better thing for us
Not a better state of the church, in such respect, as to be free from suffering reproach and persecutions; for this is the case of saints under the New Testament as under the Old; nor the felicity of the soul after death; nor any greater degree of happiness in the other world; nor the perfection of blessedness in soul and body; things common to all believers; but Christ, as now exhibited in the flesh: Jesus Christ was the same in the yesterday of the Old Testament, as he is in the present day of the Gospel dispensation; he was slain from the foundation of the world; and the saints then were saved as now, by his grace and righteousness: only with this difference between them and us; they had Christ in the promise, we have him himself that was promised; they had him in type and shadow, we have him in reality and truth; they believed in, and were saved by Christ, who was to come; we believe in him, and are saved by him, as being come. Hence our case is, with respect to these circumstances, better than theirs; we have a better covenant, or a better administration of the covenant of grace; we have a better priesthood, and a better sacrifice; the Gospel is dispensed in a better manner, more dearly and fully: our condition is better than theirs; they were as children under tutors and governors, and were under a spirit of bondage; but we are redeemed from under the law, and are clear of its burdensome rites, as well as of its curse and condemnation; and have the spirit of liberty and adoption. And this God has provided for us in his council and covenant: for this denotes God's determination, designation, and appointment of Christ, to be the propitiatory sacrifice for sin; and has respect to the nature and circumstances of his death, which were fixed in the purposes of God; as well as the time of his coming into the world, and the season of his death; and in all this God has shown his great goodness, his amazing love, and the riches of his grace: and his end herein is,

that they without us should not be made perfect;
the Old Testament saints are perfectly justified, perfectly sanctified, and perfectly glorified; but their perfection was not by the law, which made nothing perfect, but by Christ, and through his sacrifice, blood, and righteousness; and so were not made perfect without us; since their sins and ours are expiated together by the same sacrifice; their persons and ours justified together by the same righteousness; they and we make up but one church, and general assembly; and as yet all the elect of God among the Jews are not called, and so are not perfect in themselves, or without us. Jews and Gentiles will incorporate together in the latter day; and besides, they and we shall be glorified together, in soul and body, to all eternity.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 1sheep said:

Read and learn! 

that they without us should not be made perfect;

the Old Testament saints are perfectly justified, perfectly sanctified, and perfectly glorified; but their perfection was not by the law, which made nothing perfect, but by Christ, and through his sacrifice, blood, and righteousness; and so were not made perfect without us; since their sins and ours are expiated together by the same sacrifice; their persons and ours justified together by the same righteousness; they and we make up but one church, and general assembly; and as yet all the elect of God among the Jews are not called, and so are not perfect in themselves, or without us. Jews and Gentiles will incorporate together in the latter day; and besides, they and we shall be glorified together, in soul and body, to all eternity.

Thank you for confirming the point I was trying to make.  That was beautifully stated. 

As the above comment points out, the OT saints and the NT saints make up but one church.  They belonged to Christ as we also belong to Christ.  The new testament writers understood this concept.

  • By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.  Hebrews 11:24-26
  • And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.  1 Corinthians 10:4

When Jesus returns for His church, the OT saints and the NT saints will together be made immortal.  The OT saints and the NT saints make up the bride of the Lamb.  The OT saints belong to Christ just as the NT saints do.  Simple as that.

  • But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.  1 Corinthians 15:23

OT saints are Christ's and will be made immortal at the same time that NT saints are.

  • Thumbs Up 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

When Jesus returns for His church, the OT saints and the NT saints will together be made immortal.  The OT saints and the NT saints make up the bride of the Lamb.  The OT saints belong to Christ just as the NT saints do.  Simple as that.

  • But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.  1 Corinthians 15:23

OT saints are Christ's and will be made immortal at the same time that NT saints are.

You left out one segment of people, those who come out of the Great Tribulation alive and occupy the earth and breed so they are like the sands on the sea shore before the end of the Mill.

You are mixing up immortality and position with Christ.  Not all are the same.  The Bride of Christ are those who have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, all others are not the Bride of Christ.  1 Cor 12:4..... - There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.  The Spirit gives; wisdom, knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, discerning different spirits, tongues (languages), interpreting different languages.  The body is a unit.... v. 27 Now you are the body of Christ.  Who is this group of people which Paul is referring to?  It ain't OT Saints,  It ain't Mill. Saints.  It ain't OT Israel, It ain't NT Israel.  Those who are Indwelt by the Holy Spirit are the body of Christ and His Bride.  Indwelling of the Holy Spirit begin at Pentecost.

In Christ

Montana Marv

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I'm glad you can see how silly it it.  Let's remove the fog of dispensationalism and that should take care of the silliness.

  • The bride of Christ is made up of both OT and NT believers.  That much is plainly stated in Revelation 21.
  • New covenant saints would not even exist if it weren't for the promises made to the old covenant saints.  Old covenant saints aren't completed without the new covenant saints fulfilling those promises.  This is a principle that is explained in Hebrews 11 and stated in verses 39 & 40.  OT believers and NT believers together are a completed, perfect entity.  This relationship between OT prophets & NT saints can also be seen in 1 Peter 1:10-12
  • The church of Jesus Christ is made up of OT and NT believers.  When Jesus returns, His church will be made immortal.  This includes both OT and NT saints since they both belong to Christ through faith.  This is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:23
  • Christ is married to both the OT & NT saints together, when He returns.  They complete each other.  The OT saints don't get incorporated into the bride at some later point.
  • The New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 is the fully adorned bride.  It includes the righteous of the millennial kingdom.

Actually, the bride of Christ is not made up of both OT and NT believers.  They are separate distinct entities.  Both groups redeemed but different.

John the baptist.  Yeshua said that of all born of women, JB was the greatest.  Yet, even the least one in the kingdom is greater than JB.   And JB said that he was the friend of the bridegroom, not the groom or the bride.  And he was the last of the OT prophets and the greatest of the OT saints per Yeshua.

John 3:27-29  John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.

But I also will defer to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who did the definitive work "Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology".  He did a blog article on just this discussion about the bride.  I think it pretty well sums up the issue.  You can disagree with him all you want.  

https://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2009/07/wife-of-jehovah-and-bride-of-messiah.html

 

Edited by OldCoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/31/2018 at 5:15 PM, OldCoot said:

 

If only people would realize that the Bible was written by Hebrews in a Hebrew context talking about a Hebrew Messiah and get out of their western mindset on how they view scripture.  There are myriads of sources one can consult on how the ancient Hebrew wedding was done. 

 

The is no Jew or Greek, all are one in Christ Jesus.

Not a Hebrew Messiah, Jesus is the Messiah of all mankind.

  • Thumbs Up 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...