OSAS is the result of the finished work of the cross

[Michael37]

7 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Are we friends and enemies of God?

Jhn 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Heb 4:1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
 

[discipler777]

6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

6 hours ago, Cletus said:

and God does not contradict himself.  ever. 

?

Matt 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jhn 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

5 hours ago, Cletus said:

2 of those scriptures refute osas.  the last two. 

No, they refute works salvation, wonderful works, work iniquity........

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You have just misinterpreted or twisted the Scripture at MATTHEW.7:21-23 which says that those who work iniquity or lawlessness shall not enter the kingdom of heaven, and not says about false works salvation aka Christians are not saved by the good works of the Law but solely by faith in Jesus Christ(GALATIANS.2:16-17). 

1CORINTHIANS.6:9-10 and GALATIANS.5:19-21 also say that those who work iniquity or lawlessness or unrighteousness or of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God/heaven. Do these Scripture also refute works salvation.? .......

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MATTHEW.7:21-23 (NKJV) = I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

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1CORINTHIANS.6:9-10 = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

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GALATIANS.5:19-21 = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[discipler777]

6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

6 hours ago, Cletus said:

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit.  sounds like to me a branch thats in Him, or In Christ, which would be someone who has been born again...  that does not produce fruit is cut off.  seems to me that pretty well refutes osas.  someone in Christ is cut off.  in another verse it even further explains if you do not abide in Jesus, you do not bear fruit.  so it links back to the whole abiding thing. 

Life is a paradoxical dichotomy wrapped in an enigma. 

Well I don't know of any born again believers working for their salvation, do you?

The topic of this thread is about the truth or falsehood of the OSAS doctrine and not about whether salvation is by faith or by works. IOW, the topic is not about " Once Saved" but about whether the added "Always Saved" is true or false.

Basic or elementary Christianity about being saved by faith and not by the good works of the Law is already common knowledge among mature Christians. Why are you still dwelling on the basics/elementary.?(cf HEBREWS.6:1-8) 

So far, on this thread, Scripture has proven OSAS to be false because 'faith+evil works = no-longer-faith = non-faith' will not inherit the kingdom of God/heaven.

As per MATTHEW.7:15-20 and GALATIANS.5:19-26, those who are truly saved by God/Jesus shall bear good fruits/works of the Spirit while those who are falsely saved by the devil shall bear bad fruits/works of the flesh. That is how we know the true prophets/teachers/Christians from the false, ie by their fruits/works. So far, on this thread, the OSASers have been proven to bear bad fruits/works of the flesh, eg enjoy continuing in sins(eg reviling/insulting and mocking others, etc), misquoting, misinterpreting and rejecting Scripture or the Word of God.

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Edited December 11, 2018 by discipler777

[Blood Bought 1953]

12 hours ago, Butero said:

Do you have proof to back up your comment that, "we who do not worry about our performance wind up having a better one than THEY do?"  Feel free to show that proof in the post where you list the 400 verses that prove OSAS is correct.  I recall you one mentioned there were something like 600 commandments in the law of Moses, and once it seems I recall you mentioning there being a couple of thousand commandments.  Either way, feel free to post them too.  

 

The only performance I have is the one that counts..... God working through me, from the inside out......that would be foreign to a Legalists......The Judaizer thinks his performance, especially his repentance record, is keeping him saved, assuming they were saved in the first place..... I don’t know if the person knows God or not, so I can’t really say.One  thing that I DO know is anything done to keep yourself saved is a “dead work”  My Faith works will be rewarded at the Bema Seat. Dead workers sometimes get the praise of men here on earth and that is all that they  get.

Dr.Peter Ruckman, a Bible genius and true man of Faith made the remark about 400 verses that unarguably support OSAS and 200 verses that “ appear” upon a cursory glance, seem to support  OSAS.All of the 200 That “appear” to support that salvation can be lost are either taken out of context or are not talking to the Body of Christ.Ruckman was not a liar.....if he said it you can take it to the bank.

Their are 613 commandments given to the Jews in the OT......that comes from Jewish Rabbis.I’ve heard a dozen preachers use that number, including Charles Stanley and Zola Levitt.Nobody makes a big deal about it or disputes it—— the actual number could have been 612 or 614. As usual, the gist of this goes right over your head. The number is not important. The number is used to show that there was much more to The Law than just the 10 commandments.Go thru the OT and count out your own number if you know better than the Rabbis.Its Of no importance unless one is a Legalists ( oops! Forgot to pretend that word does not exist.Ha! They wish!) The Laws ,whether they be 10 or 10,000, were given for one main reason—- to “ shut up our mouths” and show us we can’t keep them.The Law was likened to a slave exclusively used to take a child by the hand and take him to school.The Law, if properly understood takes us by the hand figuratively and leads us to our Savior.After that we strive to obey the Law because if we are obedient God will bless our  Christian walk.Disobedience will result in a bruised rear- end, God doesnt care to spank you all the way Home if you want to be a fool and disobey ....especially willfully sinning.THAT will get you a GIANT butt whipping.Bruised because of a foolish, disobedient life after Salvation.God may even kill you so as not to be mocked.If you are a Believer in the Blood alone for Salvation, you are still saved.....God will still carry out His Promise to save—- due to your FAITH—NOT your pitiful performance.

 

 

[discipler777]

9 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

17 hours ago, discipler777 said:

@Montana Marv

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We are now on Page 60 of this thread = after about 600 posts. All the Scripture you quoted have already been debunked on this thread, eg your quote of JOHN.10:28-29 to prove OSAS ... actually only applied to the 11 Apostles of Jesus Christ and not to every ordinary Christians after them, as per JOHN.17:12. For the "special" 11 Apostles, once saved, no one could pluck them out of God's hands except for the lost son of perdition/hell(= Judas Iscariot). This did not/does not apply to every ordinary Christians except for the elected of God as per His Word, eg MATTHEW.7:15-23 = how to know false prophets/teachers/Christians from true prophets/teachers/Christians, ie by their fruits/works/words. Who does God/Jesus love and ensure that no one pluck them out of His hands.?(cf JOHN.14:21-24)

You ignore anti-OSAS Scripture like how most OSASers and yourself have also ignored the Old Testament Law of God. 

As per MATTHEW.4:1-11, Satan doesn't just quote Scripture - he misquote, falsely interpret and interpret out of context the Scripture and when these dirty tactics fail, he then makes tempting offers to secure allegiance and worship. 1JOHN.3:8 says that those who sin or do evil or break the commandments are of the devil = their take on the Scripture is the same as Satan's. Only God is right wrt His Word or Scripture or Bible. The man of God is to base his understanding and debates on the Scripture or Word of God(2TIMOTHY.3:16-17) or on what is right in the eyes of God and not on what is right in his/her own eyes or his/her own fancies(DEUT.12:8 & 13:18), eg a 66 y o Christian man who fancies being a chick-magnet in his own eyes.

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When I referred to myself as 66 year old chick magnet is was pointing out the  A B S U R D I T Y of that !, GOOD GRIEF, man ,do you have to EVERYTHING spelled out for you? Sometimes people use irony and absurdity to make a point.You misunderstand a LOT.You should really not be engaging in debates.Some people are very shallow in their thinking.It explains a lot......speaking of “ explaining”, don’t forget to check out on You Tube — Ralph “ YANKEE “ Arnold— be forewarned: he sometimes uses irony trying to make a point

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MATTHEW.12:33-37 (NKJV) = A Tree Known by Its Fruit

33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

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[discipler777]

19 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

The only performance I have is the one that counts..... God working through me, from the inside out......that would be foreign to a Legalists.

If God/Jesus is truly working in you, you bear good fruits/works of the Spirit. Otherwise, it is an evil spirit working in you to bear bad fruits/works of the flesh. Examine yourself(1COR.11:30-31). 1JOHN.3:8 says, "He who sins is of the devil."

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, discipler777 said:

As per MATTHEW.7:15-20 and GALATIANS.5:19-26, those who are truly saved by God/Jesus shall bear good fruits/works of the Spirit while those who are falsely saved by the devil shall bear bad fruits/works of the flesh. That is how we know the true prophets/teachers/Christians from the false, ie by their fruits/works. So far, on this thread, the OSASers have been proven to bear bad fruits/works of the flesh, eg enjoy continuing in sins(eg reviling/insulting and mocking others, etc), misquoting, misinterpreting and rejecting Scripture or the Word of God.

 

I have been reading some of this thread tonight, and it occurred to me that a large portion of this exchange is either a big misunderstanding, or simply a desire to argue in circles.  I am going to show you what I mean just by comparing a couple of posts from opposing views.  For starters, this excerpt from discipler, but specifically let's focus on one particular segment.

 

2 hours ago, discipler777 said:

those who are truly saved by God/Jesus shall bear good fruits/works of the Spirit

 

Now, if I am understanding correctly, discipler is specifically stating that good fruits/ works, come from the Spirit, as in, the Holy Spirit.  I think we all agree that the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead, or trinity, which means what discipler is saying is that good fruits/ works comes from God, not from himself.  I can go back further to another one of disciplers posts as well, in which a passage was posted regarding abiding in Christ / Christ abiding in the individual.  This too should be understood as a reference to the Holy Spirit, as this is how Christ abides in us in our present mortal bodies.  Anyway, that is two examples of where I see discipler saying that whatever good is done, is done by the Holy Spirit/ God through him.

 

2 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

The only performance I have is the one that counts..... God working through me, from the inside out......that would be foreign to a Legalists......The Judaizer thinks his performance, especially his repentance record, is keeping him saved, assuming they were saved in the first place..... I don’t know if the person knows God or not, so I can’t really say.One  thing that I DO know is anything done to keep yourself saved is a “dead work”  My Faith works will be rewarded at the Bema Seat. Dead workers sometimes get the praise of men here on earth and that is all that they  get.

 

Now this excerpt from blood bought, let's focus on just the opening statement.

 

2 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

The only performance I have is the one that counts..... God working through me, from the inside out.

 

God working through him, from the inside out.  Now that sounds an awful lot to me like what you are saying is, any good fruit/ works from you comes as a result of the Holy Spirit/ God.  Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that exactly what discipler said?  Once all the uncalled for rhetoric is washed away, you believe the same thing in this regard.  So would it be safe to say, that fruit/ work that comes from the Holy Spirit cannot be called a "dead work" as you suggested?

Once you two get past the misunderstanding regarding the fruit/ work, maybe you can find a civil way to discuss some of the scripture.  If you continue to argue about something you agree on, I am not sure what the point of the conversation is.  Just my two cents worth.

God bless

[wingnut-]

10 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

I was praying about this last night, and this way of looking at it came to me: 

In all of this, the transforming Power of Salvation has been missed.

an example: if one becomes a parent, everything changes. One cannot go back to being the person one was before. Of course, outwardly one can be a neglectful parent, but inwardly one has changed.

The same with Salvation. One may be physically capable of doing something deliberately sinful and consciously bad, one may mentally have the capability for our brains to work for evil. But the soul and heart is changed. Radically and permanently changed. Even if we tried to be evil, our soul/conscience, wont let us go back to the person we were before. That is part of what that transforming Power is. Hence the parable of the Prodigal son. He knew his sin, repented, and returned to his Father.

And someone who can go back to evil/sinfulness without fear or guilt has not been transformed, and has  not been saved.

That is the meaning of Once Saved, Always Saved - We cannot go back to the deadened person we were before, and we no longer actively want to sin, or cease to care about sin.

 

I agree with that, but I think how one defines salvation may be where some of the confusion or differences begin.  Clarification is offered in scripture of course, straight from the mouth of Jesus.

 

John  3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

God bless

[wingnut-]

4 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

can I just asked a possibly stupid question?

Could the definition of Salvation be seen to have change after Jesus death? just wondering if the confusion is in that part.

 

Scripture tells us that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  So God's definition of salvation has not wavered one bit.  Unfortunately, men have redefined repentance in modern times.  If you have the time, I would suggest watching this video for clarification of how things have changed in more recent times regarding repentance, salvation, and how the church has turned the sinners prayer into a fast food version of salvation with no real discipleship for those new to the faith.

 

 

 

[discipler777]

5 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

He who misquotes and rejects the Word of God is an enemy of God. .......

The above is a false accusation

The below is evident in here every day

 

He who adds to the Gospel is “ accursed”..... damned by God

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He who sins willfully and unrepentantly is an enemy of God.

He who sins is of the devil.(1JOHN.3:8)

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REVELATION.22:18-19 (NKJV) = A Warning

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

DEUTERONOMY.12:32 = 32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

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Another OSASer who misinterprets Scripture. The warning of God/Jesus is to not add or subtract from His commandments/Law and the prophecies of Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation. Anti-OSASers using Scripture to prove the falsehood of OSAS are not adding to Scripture or the gospel which you have falsely accused them of.

It is against Scripture or the Word of God for you to say that Christians who, for whatever reason, go and do works of unrighteousness or lawlessness will still be saved or "once saved always saved".(cf REVELATION.22:12-17, 1COR.6:9-10, GALATIANS.5:19-21) .......

Quote

On 12/8/2018 at 3:29 AM, discipler777 said:
Are you saying that Christians who, for whatever reason, go and do works of unrighteousness or lawlessness will still be saved or "once saved always saved".?

 On 12/8/2018 at 6:49 AM, Blood Bought 1953 said:
Yes.

Edited December 11, 2018 by discipler777