OSAS is the result of the finished work of the cross

[discipler777]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

3 hours ago, discipler777 said:

As per MATTHEW.7:15-20 and GALATIANS.5:19-26, those who are truly saved by God/Jesus shall bear good fruits/works of the Spirit while those who are falsely saved by the devil shall bear bad fruits/works of the flesh. That is how we know the true prophets/teachers/Christians from the false, ie by their fruits/works. So far, on this thread, the OSASers have been proven to bear bad fruits/works of the flesh, eg enjoy continuing in sins(eg reviling/insulting and mocking others, etc), misquoting, misinterpreting and rejecting Scripture or the Word of God.

 

I have been reading some of this thread tonight, and it occurred to me that a large portion of this exchange is either a big misunderstanding, or simply a desire to argue in circles.  I am going to show you what I mean just by comparing a couple of posts from opposing views.  For starters, this excerpt from discipler, but specifically let's focus on one particular segment.

 

3 hours ago, discipler777 said:

those who are truly saved by God/Jesus shall bear good fruits/works of the Spirit

 

Now, if I am understanding correctly, discipler is specifically stating that good fruits/ works, come from the Spirit, as in, the Holy Spirit.  I think we all agree that the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead, or trinity, which means what discipler is saying is that good fruits/ works comes from God, not from himself.  I can go back further to another one of disciplers posts as well, in which a passage was posted regarding abiding in Christ / Christ abiding in the individual.  This too should be understood as a reference to the Holy Spirit, as this is how Christ abides in us in our present mortal bodies.  Anyway, that is two examples of where I see discipler saying that whatever good is done, is done by the Holy Spirit/ God through him.

 

3 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

The only performance I have is the one that counts..... God working through me, from the inside out......that would be foreign to a Legalists......The Judaizer thinks his performance, especially his repentance record, is keeping him saved, assuming they were saved in the first place..... I don’t know if the person knows God or not, so I can’t really say.One  thing that I DO know is anything done to keep yourself saved is a “dead work”  My Faith works will be rewarded at the Bema Seat. Dead workers sometimes get the praise of men here on earth and that is all that they  get.

 

Now this excerpt from blood bought, let's focus on just the opening statement.

 

3 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

The only performance I have is the one that counts..... God working through me, from the inside out.

 

God working through him, from the inside out.  Now that sounds an awful lot to me like what you are saying is, any good fruit/ works from you comes as a result of the Holy Spirit/ God.  Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that exactly what discipler said?  Once all the uncalled for rhetoric is washed away, you believe the same thing in this regard.  So would it be safe to say, that fruit/ work that comes from the Holy Spirit cannot be called a "dead work" as you suggested?

Once you two get past the misunderstanding regarding the fruit/ work, maybe you can find a civil way to discuss some of the scripture.  If you continue to argue about something you agree on, I am not sure what the point of the conversation is.  Just my two cents worth.

God bless

.

Quote

On 12/8/2018 at 3:29 AM, discipler777 said:
Are you saying that Christians who, for whatever reason, go and do works of unrighteousness or lawlessness will still be saved or "once saved always saved".?

 On 12/8/2018 at 6:49 AM, Blood Bought 1953 said:
Yes.

 

[discipler777]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

The same with Salvation. One may be physically capable of doing something deliberately sinful and consciously bad, one may mentally have the capability for our brains to work for evil. But the soul and heart is changed. Radically and permanently changed. Even if we tried to be evil, our soul/conscience, wont let us go back to the person we were before. That is part of what that transforming Power is. Hence the parable of the Prodigal son. He knew his sin, repented, and returned to his Father.

 

I think the Parable of the Lost (or Prodigal) Son at LUKE.15:11-32 is actually about the relationship between God the Father and the Law-breaking Gentiles(= prodigal son) versus the Law-keeping Jews(= loyal son).

Formerly Law-breaking or prodigal Gentiles who were lost in prodigiousness or sins and then came back to God as new Gentile Christians were like the lost/prodigal son being welcomed back by his rich father as his son and not as a servant. The other jealous but loyal son was symbolic of the Law-keeping Jews who had remained with God the Father and later became new Jewish Christians. But many jealous Jews refused to accept Jesus as the Christ/Messiah even until today.

The Parable of the Wedding Feast at MATTHEW.22:1 also has the same symbolism about Jews vs Gentiles.

[wingnut-]

I think you quoted the wrong person, that is not my post.

[George]

3 hours ago, discipler777 said:

As per MATTHEW.7:15-20 and GALATIANS.5:19-26, those who are truly saved by God/Jesus shall bear good fruits/works of the Spirit while those who are falsely saved by the devil shall bear bad fruits/works of the flesh. That is how we know the true prophets/teachers/Christians from the false, ie by their fruits/works. So far, on this thread, the OSASers have been proven to bear bad fruits/works of the flesh, eg enjoy continuing in sins(eg reviling/insulting and mocking others, etc), misquoting, misinterpreting and rejecting Scripture or the Word of God.

This is a personal attack and if any insulted anyone report it.  But based on this comment, discipler777 has been removed from this thread.

[discipler777]

1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

The same with Salvation. One may be physically capable of doing something deliberately sinful and consciously bad, one may mentally have the capability for our brains to work for evil. But the soul and heart is changed. Radically and permanently changed. Even if we tried to be evil, our soul/conscience, wont let us go back to the person we were before. That is part of what that transforming Power is. Hence the parable of the Prodigal son. He knew his sin, repented, and returned to his Father.

.

I think the Parable of the Lost (or Prodigal) Son at LUKE.15:11-32 is actually about the relationship between God the Father and the Law-breaking Gentiles(= prodigal son) versus the Law-keeping Jews(= loyal son).

Formerly Law-breaking or prodigal Gentiles who were lost in prodigiousness or sins and then came back to God as new Gentile Christians were like the lost/prodigal son being welcomed back by his rich father as his son and not as a servant. The other jealous but loyal son was symbolic of the Law-keeping Jews who had remained with God the Father and later became new Jewish Christians. But many jealous Jews refused to accept Jesus as the Christ/Messiah even until today.

The Parable of the Wedding Feast at MATTHEW.22:1 also has the same symbolism about Jews vs Gentiles.

.

@wingnut 

Sorry. My apologies.

.

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by discipler777

[George]

5 hours ago, discipler777 said:

He who misquotes and rejects the Word of God is an enemy of God. .......

This is also a direct personal attack.  if you quote someone then immediately follow with these words.  That's a personal attack and will cause you to be removed from a thread.

[Guest Butero]

4 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

The only performance I have is the one that counts..... God working through me, from the inside out......that would be foreign to a Legalists......The Judaizer thinks his performance, especially his repentance record, is keeping him saved, assuming they were saved in the first place..... I don’t know if the person knows God or not, so I can’t really say.One  thing that I DO know is anything done to keep yourself saved is a “dead work”  My Faith works will be rewarded at the Bema Seat. Dead workers sometimes get the praise of men here on earth and that is all that they  get.

Dr.Peter Ruckman, a Bible genius and true man of Faith made the remark about 400 verses that unarguably support OSAS and 200 verses that “ appear” upon a cursory glance, seem to support  OSAS.All of the 200 That “appear” to support that salvation can be lost are either taken out of context or are not talking to the Body of Christ.Ruckman was not a liar.....if he said it you can take it to the bank.

Their are 613 commandments given to the Jews in the OT......that comes from Jewish Rabbis.I’ve heard a dozen preachers use that number, including Charles Stanley and Zola Levitt.Nobody makes a big deal about it or disputes it—— the actual number could have been 612 or 614. As usual, the gist of this goes right over your head. The number is not important. The number is used to show that there was much more to The Law than just the 10 commandments.Go thru the OT and count out your own number if you know better than the Rabbis.Its Of no importance unless one is a Legalists ( oops! Forgot to pretend that word does not exist.Ha! They wish!) The Laws ,whether they be 10 or 10,000, were given for one main reason—- to “ shut up our mouths” and show us we can’t keep them.The Law was likened to a slave exclusively used to take a child by the hand and take him to school.The Law, if properly understood takes us by the hand figuratively and leads us to our Savior.After that we strive to obey the Law because if we are obedient God will bless our  Christian walk.Disobedience will result in a bruised rear- end, God doesnt care to spank you all the way Home if you want to be a fool and disobey ....especially willfully sinning.THAT will get you a GIANT butt whipping.Bruised because of a foolish, disobedient life after Salvation.God may even kill you so as not to be mocked.If you are a Believer in the Blood alone for Salvation, you are still saved.....God will still carry out His Promise to save—- due to your FAITH—NOT your pitiful performance.

 

 

I do not take them at their word about the number of verses that supposedly prove OSAS or the number of laws.  Nobody should, unless they back that up and tell us what they are.  And yes, there is no such thing as a legalist in the Bible.  The word Judaizer is not in the Bible either.  Legalist is a phony sin made up by lawless individuals so nobody will mention their sins.  If it was a sin, Jesus and all those he used to write the New Testament would be legalists.  Unless you can show me the actual 400 verses and the 600 plus laws that you assume exist, I am challenging it.  

[Guest Butero]

6 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

He who misquotes and rejects the Word of God is an enemy of God. .......

The above is a false accusation

The below is evident in here every day

 

He who adds to the Gospel is “ accursed”..... damned by God

The OSAS crowd is guilty of doing that all the time to defend their beliefs.  They take scripture out of context and reject scripture that proves them wrong.  They add to scripture, like the one about no man can pluck someone out of God's hands.  They pencil into the text that they can't walk out of God's hand, when it never says that.  

[Guest Butero]

2 hours ago, maryjayne said:

I was praying about this last night, and this way of looking at it came to me: 

In all of this, the transforming Power of Salvation has been missed.

an example: if one becomes a parent, everything changes. One cannot go back to being the person one was before. Of course, outwardly one can be a neglectful parent, but inwardly one has changed.

The same with Salvation. One may be physically capable of doing something deliberately sinful and consciously bad, one may mentally have the capability for our brains to work for evil. But the soul and heart is changed. Radically and permanently changed. Even if we tried to be evil, our soul/conscience, wont let us go back to the person we were before. That is part of what that transforming Power is. Hence the parable of the Prodigal son. He knew his sin, repented, and returned to his Father.

And someone who can go back to evil/sinfulness without fear or guilt has not been transformed, and has  not been saved.

That is the meaning of Once Saved, Always Saved - We cannot go back to the deadened person we were before, and we no longer actively want to sin, or cease to care about sin.

I believe that God will bring conviction on a person that was genuinely saved if they walk away for a time, as with the prodigal son.  He was chastised severely for his disobedience, which led to his returning, but while he was away, he was referred to as dead and lost, terms associated with the unsaved.  Had he died before returning to the Father, he would have died lost.  

Where the confusion comes in is in reference to predestination and election, and God's foreknowledge of all we will ever do.  He knew the prodigal before he formed him in his Mother's womb, and knew all he would ever do, so in God's mind, the prodigal was of the elect and would be saved.  On the other hand, when God creates a person, knowing that he or she will not return, but will die before they have the chance or they will never choose to return, then they were not of the elect.  Election has nothing to do with anything we choose to do or not to do.  The same thing applies to those scriptures that would seem to some to indicate unconditional security.  They are not based on a confession we made or anything like that.  They are showing God knows who the elect are as he is our creator, and the chose them to be saved, so he will keep them.  It is not about the fact that any of us went to an alter to pray, got saved, and therefore God must keep us saved.  If you are not of the elect, you won't remain, and God is under no obligation to keep you saved.  If you are of the elect, you will remain or at least be right with God at the time you die.  That is why we are told to make our calling and election sure.  

As for this silly "lucky repentance" garbage, there is no luck involved.  If I simply keep following God, and don't go back into willful sin, I don't need to repent of anything to remain saved.  I simply walk according to the new man.  It is when I turn back, like Lot's wife did, that I get in trouble.  I should know before I choose to go back into sin I am risking it all when I do that.  No lucky anything.  It is a choice.  If I decide to repent later on, that is a choice I am making.  No luck involved.  If someone is going to call that lucky repentance, it is no difference than lucky salvation.  One person dies before they accept Christ, when they may have gotten saved had they had one more week of life, while another lives to be an old man or an old woman before they get saved.  Lucky salvation.  There is no difference.  This is all a type of propaganda and spin.  

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

that statement is ridiculous. They have NOT said any such thing, at all.

I think he's paraphrasing what he thinks we're saying.

What I find interesting is that I strongly believe that guilt is of Satan, while conviction is from God. I ignore guilt, but respond to conviction. And yes, they are very, very different. Guilt destroys. 

Conviction makes you aware of your sin. You can then respond to that conviction.