Abuse, Not just Catholics

[Still Alive]

4 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

again, this may just be a wording thing but;

I DO NOT accept that all humans have the potential to be child molesters

I DO accept that all child molesters are humans.

I used to believe that. The more I hang around people and see what leads them to do the things they do, the more I see all of us as "there but for circumstance go I" regarding what we are all capable of. So much of what makes me what I am is rooted in how I was raised, where I was raised, how, as a young child, I interpreted events around me and the things that happened to me, etc. It's why I refuse to judge people but will judge what they do. I know I'm capable of it, given the right history. That is one reason I am so grateful for his saving grace and, frankly, His protecting me from becoming such a person.

It's all just human nature that gets people into this kind of trouble. It's why Paul's words are so important to me. 

Good news, though: In my particular case it IS safe to let me babysit your kids. However, I've been around a few pre- or early-teen girls that I would NEVER allow myself to be alone with - for MY protection. Seriously.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

We all have the potential to be the best or the worst.......” There, but for the Grace of God, Go I”

[Uber Genius]

2 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi Uber Genius,

 I think you're presenting a cheap excuse for child abuse. Just being human doesn't make you a child molester.

Why the straw man misrepresentation?

 

when people say, "It is a human problem, they are not saying that being human makes one a child molester!

You misrepresented the idiom and attacked your own misrepresentation. 

The idiom means that their are child molesters distributed across cultures around the world. This statement is to counteract the false cause fallacy used by non-Catholics to represent that Catholics priests are disproportionately sexually abusive. 

 

If I were to use literal rather than idiomatic language I would say, "It seems to me that all cultures have child molesters, the news focuses its attention on church leaders because it is an appeal to emotion against churches and religious people in general. The news reporters do this because they are secular in their beleif and opposed to religion in culture. A fairer scientific study would demonstrate that all cultures have these types of abuses. 

 

Or I could just say, "It is a human problem."

[Kristin]

I agree with the poster who thinks priests should be able to marry. I think otherwise it attracts homosexuals to the clergy, which is not good. I understand that child molesters and homosexuals are not necessarily the same thing. However, both are perversion. 

[thomas t]

Hi Uber Genius,

I've waited a while to see if maybe others interpret your statement "it's a human problem".

 

So now I understand it as saying that this problem can be found everywhere - in every human community. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Even if child abuse is wide spread it shouldn't be considered as normal or as intrinsically linked with human existence, in my opinion.

I also think you were talking about churches, since churches is what this thread is about and you were replying to the opening post.

So I conclude that, in your opinion, it can be found in every church. So you're implying, that I attend a church that has this problem, too. For me, this is where the problem lies.

 

21 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

the false cause fallacy used by non-Catholics to represent that Catholics priests are disproportionately sexually abusive. 

So now you're implying that the church I attend is equally prone to child abuse than the Catholic one? I mean proportionally? This would be a bold accusation, could you back this up, please? I attend a FEG church in Germany. I'm not saying that you can be sure there are no cases of child abuse committed by church officials in any FEG in Germany, since I don't know all of them. Neither am I making any comparison between the US and Germany. (Actually, you brought up the cross-culture comparison). I'm just saying, if you're implying that the church I go to is guilty of it, please present the numbers, epecially if you come to talk about proportions. If you can't back it up, why bring this claim forward?

 

I think every claim needs to be backed up. That's true for accusations in particular. If you see child abuse occuring in the one church and maybe in some others, too, this doesn't mean it can be found in every church, just because you see this happening in the first group.

I find this statement was quite generalizing without even trying to back it up.

Moreover, when you say "all cultures", you seem to have quite a good knowledge of these (all of them)...

Regards,

Thomas

Edited December 14, 2018 by thomas t
clarity

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

So now I understand it as saying that this problem can be found everywhere - in every human community. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is the standard use of the idiom. I failed to look at your profile and see you were not a native English speaker. When you misrepresented my statment a s a "cheap excuse," I assumed you knew the idiomatic way that that phrase was used in English, but it is a nuanced one so I'm sorry for assuming English was your first language.  In other words we want to avoid explaining the data of child abuse as a function of Catholicism. Rather it would be seen as a function of certain environments and genetic traits that are common across human culture. 

I am making no pronouncements on one church vs another. The data that would allow us to study child abuse is not as readily available as data of say spousal abuse. Further, the factors may not be known or easily measured or amenable to multivariate analysis (not be able to be separated from other causes). 

What we do know is that abusers grow up to be abusers. So we want to identify and counsel them as quickly as possible. 

"A implies B implies C therefore you are claiming A causes C justify your claim," only works if the relationships are necessary ones. That is all A produce B and all B produce A.

I'm cleaning up false generalizations not making them. My point is to help people think inductively about causes and effects. Further I am trying to get people away from fallacious appeals such as Catholcism must be false due to the character of its priests. Although I'm not a Catholic I am a defender of rationality. I'm am sympathetic to the OP and the false cause and ad hominem attacks against Catholicism. 

 

[thomas t]

Please Uber G,

treat me as any native speaker, if I don't understand idiomatic use... the web offers plenty of dictionaries where this is explained.

I don't want to have extra treatment for not being native, this would make everything more complicated than as it is already. I am more than glad to be here as I can't partake in discussion at jesus.de anymore, as I'm banned there.

2 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

I'm cleaning up false generalizations not making them.

Thank you, I find this is a real strong answer, I'm glad to be able to read it.

Regards,

Thomas

 

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

Did you meant to say that the abused grow up to be abusers?

It so,you need to put the word 'some' in that sentence.

many abused children grow up to be afraid, timid, unable to defend themselves, scared, lacking in confidence, depressed, anxious and solitary. They do not abuse others.

 

Good distinction. Absolutely the case. Thanks. 

I meant that a disproportion of those who were abused in any form as a child end up becoming perpetrators of the same abuse as adults if not treated. Don't recall the magnitude. Could be that 1 in 10,000 is a abuser who themselves weren't abused and that one of 100 or even one in 10 who were abused become abusers. But it is significant enough to warrant counseling ASAP. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Uber Genius

[Uber Genius]

44 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

that ties in with my experiences with my work in that field for several decades

So is it your experience that CBT is helpful? Or is Dialectical Behavioral Therapy required? Or perhaps something else?

[BostonBorn]

This problem of child abuse (pedophilia) of children often starts in the home long before the hands of the so called ministers of God get hold of them.

2 Corinthians 11

 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 

Yes, mostly male members of the family - even fathers molesting their daughters.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/sexual-offenses/ramifications-incest

As a child (male) I was molested by a teenage cousin who babysat me in the evenings.

The situation went through the full 5 stages addressed in URL article above.

Often I believe I see the guilt of such an ordeal on the face of certain children but how does one approach the subject apart from prayer?

Both the perpetrator and the victim are spiritually sick.