God's sovereign choice

[Michael37]

Just now, Butero said:

What difference does it make having a spotless and glorious church starting out if a perfect angel could fall?

Judgment. Judgment. Judgment. What happened to Lucifer/Satan? He was judged. What will happen to all flesh? It will be judged. Only those who meet God's criteria for eternal life, which is by definition free of opposition to Him, will be included in the Bride.

[Guest Butero]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Butero,

The difference is that we have the very life of Jesus Christ within and thus a million, trillion years from now in eternity we will never sin for the life of the Son never sinned. We are in Him forever. Praise the Lord.

regards, Marilyn.

Is there scripture that says that, and wouldn't that mean a loss of free will?  If Lucifer was really perfect, and sin had never been done before him, a perfect and sinless creature can get to heaven and by an act of free will rebel.  A million years down the road, they might decide they don't like how God runs things, and turn against him, and get kicked out of heaven.  Either God is fully in control of his creation, and that is where our assurance comes from, or he is not, and we will always have free will to sin, even in the next life.   

[Guest Butero]

Just now, Michael37 said:

Judgment. Judgment. Judgment. What happened to Lucifer/Satan? He was judged. What will happen to all flesh? It will be judged. Only those who meet God's criteria for eternal life, which is by definition free of opposition to Him, will be included in the Bride.

But will they remain?  Lucifer, if he was created perfect, should not have rebelled, but he did.   Sin didn't exist before him, yet he sinned.  There would be nothing to stop any of us from making it to heaven and getting kicked out as he did.  OSAS doctrine is good enough to get you in the door, but not to keep you there.  

[George]

1 minute ago, Butero said:

Either God is fully in control of his creation, and that is where our assurance comes from, or he is not, and we will always have free will to sin, even in the next life.

... right now, we're in the midst of a fallen world ... and even now the Bible talks of the accuser of the brethren that relentlessly ... but soon enough all will be cast into the lake of fire!  The real issue is ... in this conversation ... the thought that God created iniquity!  This is impossible for Him to create iniquity based on His very character!  Have we gotten past this first point?  Because there's no sense "hypothesizing" scenarios -- if you haven't gotten cornerstone issue of the flaw dealt with.

@Butero It's a very simple question ... Do you still believe God created iniquity in Lucifer?   Or have we changed our mind based on Scripture?

[Michael37]

Just now, Butero said:

But will they remain?  Lucifer, if he was created perfect, should not have rebelled, but he did.   Sin didn't exist before him, yet he sinned.  There would be nothing to stop any of us from making it to heaven and getting kicked out as he did.  OSAS doctrine is good enough to get you in the door, but not to keep you there.  

From God's perspective, always knowing all that is knowable, He always had knowledge of the first act of opposition to Him and the effect it would have, and always had the remedy in Christ. Those who are in Christ are not going to oppose God in any way and only these are they who will populate heaven, such is the Life that Christ gives to those who abide in Him.

[Guest Butero]

14 minutes ago, George said:

... right now, we're in the midst of a fallen world ... and even now the Bible talks of the accuser of the brethren that relentlessly ... but soon enough all will be cast into the lake of fire!  The real issue is ... in this conversation ... the thought that God created iniquity!  This is impossible for Him to create iniquity based on His very character!  Have we gotten past this first point?  Because there's no sense "hypothesizing" scenarios -- if you haven't gotten cornerstone issue of the flaw dealt with.

@Butero It's a very simple question ... Do you still believe God created iniquity in Lucifer?   Or have we changed our mind based on Scripture?

There is more to it than that.  We are in a fallen world because of Lucifer.  Nobody had sinned in heaven before his rebellion, so the conditions were perfect, yet he sinned.  As such, if you are right, there is nothing to stop us from rebelling in heaven after getting there.  

Your whole reason for rejecting that God created Lucifer with iniquity already as part of his makeup is your claim God couldn't do that because of his character, yet you allow for him to use the devil and evil to bring about his plans.  That makes no sense.  It also means that God wasn't able to create Lucifer in a way where he would never fall.  You say that God knew he would fall, so why make him if you don't want evil to exist?  You can't give a rational answer to that, so you just say this is against God's character.  If this is against God's character, so is saying he uses evil to bring about his purposes.  Do you not think he could stop the devil anytime he wishes?  Do you not think he could skip all the bad things to come and have come up with a different plan for the future if he wanted to?  There has to be a logical reason, and the only one is that he is showing all of his creation the difference between good and evil, light and darkness, his ways and the alternative, so when this is all over and done, everyone will know God's ways are right. 

Whenever I see people try to rationalize OSAS, they do so by ignoring scriptures like where it says those who commit certain sins shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.  They ignore the real unpardonable sin of speaking against the Holy Ghost and change the meaning.  Here, God is somehow all knowing, knew what Lucifer would do, yet created him anyway, and really never wanted any of this stuff to happen.  Then why create him?  If Lucifer really had no iniquity at the start, how did it come about in a perfect heaven?  The Bible states he was perfect in all his ways, meaning his actions.  If he was truly perfect on the inside, iniquity couldn't have ever been found.  You can't find something that doesn't exist. 

It is like people are trying to find any possible way to make their doctrine work, and grasping at straws.  The answer to all of this is that God is in control of his creation, nothing happens by accident, and all scriptures that seem to promote OSAS are really speaking about predestination and election by God, not that we can never be lost again after accepting Christ.  I see no real reason to continue to argue over this.  I think our positions are plain to see.  I don't think yours makes any sense, and while you did bring a video in here telling us that Hebrews 10 doesn't mean some sins aren't covered, your Matthew Henry Commentary says it is referring to apostate Christians.  Why should we accept Tozer?  He admits many don't agree with him.   Why is he the final authority?    

[Guest Butero]

27 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

From God's perspective, always knowing all that is knowable, He always had knowledge of the first act of opposition to Him and the effect it would have, and always had the remedy in Christ. Those who are in Christ are not going to oppose God in any way and only these are they who will populate heaven, such is the Life that Christ gives to those who abide in Him.

What do you base that on?  Lucifer existed in a heaven that was perfect, and everyone is claiming he was perfect.  If he could fall, anyone could fall if God is not in complete control.  

[Steve_S]

26 minutes ago, Butero said:

Is there scripture that says that, and wouldn't that mean a loss of free will?  If Lucifer was really perfect, and sin had never been done before him, a perfect and sinless creature can get to heaven and by an act of free will rebel.  A million years down the road, they might decide they don't like how God runs things, and turn against him, and get kicked out of heaven.  Either God is fully in control of his creation, and that is where our assurance comes from, or he is not, and we will always have free will to sin, even in the next life.   

Heb 10:12  But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 
Heb 10:13  from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 
Heb 10:14  For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 

The sort of perfection one receives as a result of Christ's perfect sacrifice is eternal in nature. Our (those of us being sanctified) preservation comes from Christ, not ourselves.

Jud 1:1  Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2Ti 4:18  And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 
1Pe 1:4  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 
1Pe 1:5  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 
Joh 10:28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 

There is absolutely, without a doubt, scriptural support to show that the perfection imputed to those who are saved through faith in Jesus Christ is eternally immutable. Christians are not going to "fall" in eternity because we are conformed to Christ, who is Himself absolutely perfect.

[Guest Butero]

1 minute ago, Steve_S said:

Heb 10:12  But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 
Heb 10:13  from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 
Heb 10:14  For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 

The sort of perfection one receives as a result of Christ's perfect sacrifice is eternal in nature. Our (those of us being sanctified) preservation comes from Christ, not ourselves.

Jud 1:1  Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2Ti 4:18  And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 
1Pe 1:4  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 
1Pe 1:5  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 
Joh 10:28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 

There is absolutely, without a doubt, scriptural support to show that the perfection imputed to those who are saved through faith in Jesus Christ is eternally immutable. Christians are not going to "fall" in eternity because we are conformed to Christ, who is Himself absolutely perfect.

Of course they are not, because they are God's elect.  Lucifer couldn't have fallen unless God intended things to happen as they did, because he is all powerful.  

[Steve_S]

1 minute ago, Butero said:

Of course they are not, because they are God's elect.  Lucifer couldn't have fallen unless God intended things to happen as they did, because he is all powerful.

That doesn't agree with scripture, though. There is a fundamental difference in the two situations. Nowhere does the scripture say that he was created for the sole purpose of being evil. That's an inference that is made, but that inference is countered by a multitude of scriptures, which renders it invalid. God is perfectly capable of creating someone perfect, but with the ability to make a choice which would then render them imperfect, and He is also perfectly capable of taking those who have chosen to sin and making them perfect (which He has done).  The scriptures teach that this is the case, as has been posted all through this thread. This is not an "either/or" situation because the scriptures themselves speak directly to it not being an "either/or" situation. Attempting to use human logic to attempt to discern God's nature and intentions is always something that should be avoided and human logic is where this sort of theory arises. We have the scriptures and in this particular case they teach highly specific things which cannot be avoided and have, again, been posted all through this thread.