PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

[Uriah]

I concur. 

[Larry H]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Agreed.  Whenever all the body of evidence is considered, post-trib is the least problematic.

The last days, however, is about being ready and persevering in the faith.  That comes about from a lifestyle of obedience to the teachings of Jesus.  So, the primary question is really not about the timing of the rapture, but whether we are ready.  That question isn't answered by our eschatology, but rather how we live our lives.

Welcome Daze

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post-trib is the least problematic.

Do you consider Uriah's faith is in danger since he studies tribulation eschatology which is problematic, when in fact as I see it he is taking the advice from his brother the Apostle Peter "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"         Obviously I see from the teaching of Jesus he holds his own by doing so with gentleness and respect. To me that's a way to live the Christian life. Wouldn't you think so.

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"The last days, however, is about being ready and persevering in the faith"

Why wait for the last days, perhaps the Rapture can come to pass a thousand years from today, and time means nothing to God. 

Kind Regards

Larry

[Larry H]

Greeting Uriah and Dase

I must apologize for my previous statement in my most recent post. 

My quote was ....  "Why wait for the last days, perhaps the Rapture can come to pass a thousand years from today." 

 I was thinking out of the box of tribulationists theology. Be that as it may, the poster had HEBREWS 10:25 in mind, and was endeavoring  to encourage a fellow colleague with scripture.

"Let, but let us encourage one another — and all the more as you see the DAY APPROACHING"

 

Nonetheless the writer of Hebrews was advocating something else entirely, "the destruction of Jerusalem was an event of great importance TO THE HEBREWS, AND TO THE HEBREW CHRISTIANS TO WHOM THIS EPISTLE WAS DIRECTED", Not something that was going to take place thousands of Years later.

"For in just a VERY LITTLE WHILE,  "HE WHO IS COMING will come and WILL NOT DELAY HEBREWS 10:37 

It 's from this time text, and others that formulates a good case for  Realized Eschatology".

NOW IF THIS ISN'T LITERAL, and in context I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS.

Thanks for reading

[Uriah]

Hi Larry, 

As far as post trib is concerned, the truth is clear: Rev.15:8- "...no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." 

And I know it drives preterists crazy but God doesn't see time as we do. There are examples of the same delays in fulfillment in the O.T. as well. Not only that but like the O.T. we can see how it is written also for our learning, kike Hab.2:3 ( for an appointed time-though it lingers it won't delay) So God use double talk here but reveals in seemingly contradictory that HE speaks in the NOW. 

 

PS- got my PM?

 

[Larry H]

Hi Uriah

Thanks for bringing Hab. 2:3,4 to my interest with expressions appearing to show  Heb. 10:37 is alluding to the coming of  Christ in our future by a twofold, double talk, interpretation.  

Or is it possible the writer of Hebrews was using Hab. 2:3,4 to accommodate those words to his own purpose." And supplying the first century Hebrews with the imminent arrival of Divine National Judgment on the Chosen Nation?  Matthew 23 through chapter 24:1-34

Jesus said he would return in the lifetime of his disciples Matt.10:23

DOUBLE TALK EXAMPLES

Reducing costs" instead of "cutting your salary"

"Violent extremism" instead of "abject terrorism"

"Gently used" instead of "used and horribly beaten up"

You said  "Got my PM" How do I get it, and what does PM stand for.

[Uriah]

Hello Larry,

17 hours ago, Larry H said:

Or is it possible the writer of Hebrews was using Hab. 2:3,4 to accommodate those words to his own purpose." And supplying the first century Hebrews with the imminent arrival of Divine National Judgment on the Chosen Nation?  Matthew 23 through chapter 24:1-34

Jesus said he would return in the lifetime of his disciples Matt.10:23

You said  "Got my PM" How do I get it, and what does PM stand for.

Bible commentators have referred to the Hebrews writer as using an implied meaning and a juxtaposition in at least one case. (sometimes things could be one timers) which may be the case in other parts of the NT also. Specifically for Matt.10:23, I have seen references to the unbroken evangelism to the Lord's kinsmen over the elapsed time since He was received into the cloud in Acts 1.

The evidence would be that the meaning of His return in their lifetime is remained unfulfilled. Thus the idea centuries later by preterists of a "spiritual fulfillment" is employed to fill in the gap for things hard to understand. You will not find preterists citing any other such "spiritual fulfillment" anywhere else in the bible. Prophecies are fulfilled literally. Jesus said people would have to see "the sign of the Son of Man coming in a cloud", yet He said there would be NO sign to this generation except for the sign of Jonah. Besides Jesus plainly denied He would come in their time... Luke 17:22- Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see the day when the Son of Man returns, but you won’t see it.

Spiritual fulfillments open the door to make scriptures say anything we want, nobody could disprove it. Fulfilled prophecy is more than a intellectual exercise, it is a reality that sets the bible apart from all other so-called revelations.

I used the function in my profile to send a PM to you -personal message

[Zemke]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Larry,

Bible commentators have referred to the Hebrews writer as using an implied meaning and a juxtaposition in at least one case. (sometimes things could be one-timers) which may be the case in other parts of the NT also. Specifically for Matt.10:23, I have seen references to the unbroken evangelism to the Lord's kinsmen over the elapsed time since He was received into the cloud in Acts 1.

The evidence would be that the meaning of His return in their life remains unfulfilled. Thus the idea centuries later by preterists of a "spiritual fulfilment" is employed to fill in the gap for things hard to understand. You will not find preterists citing any other such "spiritual fulfilment" anywhere else in the bible. Prophecies are fulfilled literally. Jesus said people would have to see "the sign of the Son of Man coming in a cloud", yet He said there would be NO sign to this generation except for the sign of Jonah. Besides Jesus plainly denied He would come in their time... Luke 17:22- Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see the day when the Son of Man returns, but you won’t see it.

Spiritual fulfilment opens the door to make scriptures say anything we want, nobody could disprove it. Fulfilled prophecy is more than an intellectual exercise, it is a reality that sets the Bible apart from all other so-called revelations.

I used the function in my profile to send a PM to you -a personal message

 

10

This is true, even the more when we see things further and by that, I mean more Hebraic. For instance in Johns gospel when it comes to the actual events of the arrest, crucifixion and burial of Jesus all the characters of the garden narrative in Genesis are present. Well with the exception of the naked man taking off and hiding. We find that in Marks account.

John stated he wrote the things he wrote so that the reader would believe. The narrative in John is what is called a Midrash. It was a way of teaching in second temple Judaism and what it does is use a known narrative to teach a present truth. In this case and how John starts his gospel by stating 'In the beginning" He is showing the literal fulfilment of scripture, not just a "thus saith the Lord" type statement but literally fulfilling every crossing of the T and dotting of an I. 

The garden narratives in John. The gospel accounts are more than just a historical account. It's Johns gospel where we read the Tomb and Golgotha are in a garden or garden area. Mary mistook Jesus for the gardener. A woman was the first to taste of the bad news and a woman was the first to taste of the good news. It's a reversal of the fall but also fulfilment. Jesus physically, literally fulfilled all first coming events and there is nothing to suggest the second coming will be different.

A Jew reading John in the early church era would see this, it was evangelism. More than just an account of history for us today but a showing forth that Jesus is the Christ. "Not one jot or tittle will pass away till all things are fulfilled." And by all, I would think He meant all.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Zemke

[Uriah]

Thanks Z,

Especially in Hebrews, the writer talks of Abraham looking for a city  etc. There is no O.T. reference for this. So some scholarly articles think it is a juxtaposition, contrasting the story of the city of Babylon that God disrupted and scattered the people. This is a very major point in history and one that likely WAS being pondered by those of Abraham's time and locale.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Uriah

[Larry H]

Hi Uriah

Hi lighting and capitalization's by my pen for clarity

"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, UNTIL THE SON OF MAN COMES." (Matt. 10:23) 

A previous poster made this statement about that verse "The evidence would be that the meaning of His return in their lifetime is remained unfulfilled"

 

My response Not so according to a candid Tribulationist I had an interchanged with in the thread. 

 

In a previous post, IMHO are references to provide the evidence needed to prove a first century literal return, note number 7

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, UNTIL THE SON OF MAN COMES." (Matt. 10:23) 

 

The candid tribulationist responded

 

"All these had to do with His first coming, that is true...........but will be fulfilled again with His second coming. 

First it was to Israel (ensample to the church), second time to the church.  The harvest in the end of the age.....first a separation of sheep and goats and a separation of wheat and tares took place in the first century at the end of the age of the Jews....AND this will all be fulfilled a second time in the end of the age of the Gentiles.  FIRST THE NATURAL, THEN THE SPIRITUAL.  First the earnest of the Spirit, then the fullness.  The gospel to the Jew first, then the Gentile.  There is nothing new under the sun, and what has been will be again.  That seems to wrap it up quite neatly, thanks be to God."

Obviously this seems like the partial preterist view which the poster doesn't want to be labeled, and I respect that.  

Any thoughts

[ENOCH2010]

Pardon me for butting in, preterist say everything in the Bible has already been fulfilled, what was the mark of the beast?