Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[simplejeff]

2 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Makes me wonder just how large the number will be ...

Or is TODAY .......

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, OneLight said:

The point I was making is in the scripture you pointed to, all those people were slain, nothing about being caught up in the rapture not slain.  There is a difference.

As for the number?  I hope there will be more than I can even imagine, all the while remembering the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.  Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."  Makes me wonder just how large the number will be ...

John of course TOLD us that those under the altar were slain. But of the great crowd, to large to number, there is no hint of they being martyrs. The number of martyrs will not be a crowd "too large to number." Of course the whole church will be far greater numbers than the martyrs. 

"According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, there were 2.19 billion Christians around the world in 2010"

I am sure the actual number of these who are born again is FAR less. If in this generation we guessed 1 billion, and guessed this would be the 50th generation. Then the 49th generation would be perhaps .9 billion, and the next, .8 and so on. It is going to add up to many billions!  I guess what amazes me is the size of the throne room!

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks Marilyn,

i hear what you are saying, but you have to admit, you really did not provide a SPECIFIC scriptural reference to show the entire week is called tribulation other than what Jesus called great tribulation for 3.5 years. You inferred the prior 3.5 to also be tribulation since the last 3.5 years was called GREAT tribulation. Maybe one can do that, but I think it can be argued otherwise, and I’m sure the people who advocate all the judgments of God (seals, trumpets, and bowls) are after the AOD would take issue with you as well. But your point is noted. I think we also both have common ground calling it the time of Jacobs trouble. 

Good points, mate.

spock

Hi Spock,

Thanks for reading. Now I do have some more on the 7 years but will comment on another point first. Here is background first.

 

After reading through the many comments I think the one degree off starts much earlier, so if we look at it we may get some help. Now we know that all scripture is about God revealing His Son to us, thus that is our plum line. Too often we get lost in all the details and do not consider what God is revealing of His Son and what He is doing.

Now the book of Revelation is the unveiling of the Lord as He is known in the heavenly realms. (breath taking). There are 4 visions of the Lord and what He is doing. Just a quick summary.

 1. The Head of the Body. (Rev. 1 - 3) The glorified Lord Jesus in the midst of His Body, encouraging and admonishing them over the centuries. (to rapture)

2. The Heir. (Rev. 4 - 7) The Worthy one who receives the judgment scroll. (in heaven)

3. The Mediator of the New Covenant. (Rev. 8 - 13) The judgments upon the earth, (Rev. 8 & 9)the covenant to Israel, (Rev. 10 & 11),the scriptural identity of the victor, (Rev. 12) & of Satan & his world government. (Rev. 12 & 13) (all of trib.)

4. The Judge. (Rev. 14 - 22)

Pronouncing death - Greater judgments, (bowls) on the beast`s kingdom, & his city, world`s armies, and finally all in the graves.

 Pronouncing life - Creator of all things new.

(Second part of trib, to New heavens & New Earth.)  

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

I see that the scroll is the first point that needs to be addressed as all develops from there as to what it is and what the Lord is doing with it.

`And I  saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.` (Rev. 5: 1)

Now you being a former attorney/teacher, would realise that this is a legal document, (seals). It is of the Father and He has `written` on the front and back, showing what is written is complete.  Also there are `seven` seals indicating completeness. (seven - Biblically means complete).

So we know that only the Lord (as the Heir) was legally and morally able to receive the scroll. (Legally - Lion of Judah/ king of Israel, and thus the world, & morally - the Lamb, as slain).

So what is in the scroll? The Father, we are told has given the Son all authority to execute judgment. (John 5: 27) Thus the judgments are written on the scroll for the Lord to carry them out. We are shown a pictorial representation of WHO is to be judged.

1 - 4. The four great Federations of the world being brought to judgment. (4 horsemen)

5.Vengeance of those who killed the martyrs.

6. Everybody alive on earth. (DOTL)

(parenthesis of God`s great mercy - Jewish priests & great multitude.)

7.Completeness - the judgments are complete.

Those are the judgments that the Son will execute according to the Father`s written word in the legal document. They cover all of the tribulation.

 

...I..................................................I...................................................I...>

4 Federations                                 martyrs                                              DOTL

The Jewish priests...........................

                                                                 The Great multitude.....................

 

Marilyn.

 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

10 hours ago, Spock said:

LA,

That interpretation may be right....it got my attention when I first was exposed to it......but I’m just being 100% honest with my thoughts.....I have yet to accept that interpretation (Rev 5:6 is when Jesus ascended to Heaven), not before.  

And yes, the rapture in Rev 7:9-17 does follow the 6th seal so that has to be weighed heavily. But, have you read any of Rev Mans thinking here. I’m still processing it all as we speak but he makes a good point....many chapters in Revelation are not chronological but rather interludes and filling in the details. He believes just because Rev 7 follows Rev 6 doesn’t necessarily mean these two chapters have to be chronological. I’m still pondering and weighing this thinking and seeing if it can work.  Let me know what you think. 

Therefore, I am exploring other possibilities and options and weighing them all. I’m retired, so I have plenty of time. 

This discussion is just what I was hoping for.....people I care about and respect sharing their thoughts, research, and passions. This is what learning should be about.....as well as adding prayer to help assist. Lol

spock

Remember chapter 6 (the seals) ENDS right after the 6th seal. The 7th chapter talks about the great multitude (raptured Christians) and the marking of the 144K Jews. Chapter 8 begins with the 7th seal "there was silence in heaven for about half an hour" (about one week on a day equals a year scale).  

A chronological view makes perfect sense. Why else would the Holy Spirit disconnect like that?

[Spock]

8 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Remember chapter 6 (the seals) ENDS right after the 6th seal. The 7th chapter talks about the great multitude (raptured Christians) and the marking of the 144K Jews. Chapter 8 begins with the 7th seal "there was silence in heaven for about half an hour" (about one week on a day equals a year scale).  

A chronological view makes perfect sense. Why else would the Holy Spirit disconnect like that?

Okay, but the two witnesss enter in chapter 11, after the seals and trumpets. . Are you saying this fits chronologically?

The Beast and FP enter in chapter 13 after seals and trumpets as well. Does this fit chronologically?

The Harlot and Babylon the Great come in at chapter 17-18 after the seals, trumpets, and bowls.  Does this fit chronologically? 

 

[OneLight]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John of course TOLD us that those under the altar were slain. But of the great crowd, to large to number, there is no hint of they being martyrs. The number of martyrs will not be a crowd "too large to number." Of course the whole church will be far greater numbers than the martyrs. 

"According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, there were 2.19 billion Christians around the world in 2010"

I am sure the actual number of these who are born again is FAR less. If in this generation we guessed 1 billion, and guessed this would be the 50th generation. Then the 49th generation would be perhaps .9 billion, and the next, .8 and so on. It is going to add up to many billions!  I guess what amazes me is the size of the throne room!

The great crowd, that is so large that no man can number, would be everyone whose heart was toward God since the creation of man.  Nothing tells us that the body of Christ had been raptured by then.  That is an assumption many take to back a personal assigned timeline.  Many have spend years studying scripture to pinpoint where on a timeline the rapture will occur.  Some have very convincing theories, but the truth is, nothing in scripture tells us where on a timeline this event will take place except for it being the same time as the last trumpet. 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

8 hours ago, Spock said:

Okay, but the two witnesss enter in chapter 11, after the seals and trumpets. . Are you saying this fits chronologically?

The Beast and FP enter in chapter 13 after seals and trumpets as well. Does this fit chronologically?

The Harlot and Babylon the Great come in at chapter 17-18 after the seals, trumpets, and bowls.  Does this fit chronologically? 

 

Of course, All visions in Revelation will fit into the same 3.5 year period. The seals begin in the first century with the release of the Holy Spirit (TRUE Gospel). As some here also agree, the 6th seal is the rapture which is tied in with the start of the 3.5 years.

So many different groups of people and individuals are described in their own 'vision' and so, ALL of them cannot be described as ONE vision. It requires each vision to be described individually. Sorry this will be lengthy. But I will try my best to summarize.

The Trumpets also begin at the start of this same period. Right before the first trumpet fire from the altar is cast INTO the earth. This represents the "dead" Christians rapture. Remember, those who are alive shall NOT be taken until a split second AFTER the dead. The first seal represents the living "worthy" Christians as depicted in the 6th church (Philadelphia), the 6th seal, & the great multitude. Green grass and trees represent obedient believers. Burning represents sanctification just like the altar sacrifices. The 2nd trumpet represents the left-behind un-worthy disobedient 'believers' (those who were spat out - the 7th church of Laodicea).

The 3rd trumpet shows a great star falling from heaven and "burning as it were a lamp". It seems like a lamp similar to the ones seen in Rev 1 which are spirits of God, but notice this one is an impostor and causes everything it touches to become bitter (false teachings = Prov 5:1-5). It falls on 1/3 of the "fountains of waters" and "rivers" which represent the believers (fresh water). So, this impostor is able to convince 1/3 of the left-behind church to turn away from the right path and follow him. Could be this is Satan, the false prophet, or the Beast. What happens right after the rapture? The 6th seal says people will be running to the "mountains" and asking them to protect them "from the wrath to come". Mountains in prophecy represent churches or belief systems. What will the churches be like AFTER the rapture? Will the "left-behind Christians" repent or will they say something like "AMEN, the 'tares' have been removed leaving only the true believers to take dominion over the earth? 

The 4th trumpet sees 1/3 of the stars, moon and sun darkened. This ties in with Rev 12 and these things are tied together in Isa 13:1-11 and Luke 24:25. Notice the "multitude being called out of every nation" and the "birth pangs" (both tied to the rapture). 1 Cor. 15:39-44 speaks of celestial things and earthly things - the spiritual and the natural are linked together. That is the connection that shows how stars (lights) in heaven are representative of those who are living on earth "in faith". When we turn from that faith (reject Jesus/God/ righteousness) a "light" goes out in heaven. I know, this may seem strange at first, but the Biblical connection can be seen in prophecy. We also see the dragon later on being cast out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels after the 'war in heaven' which is kicked off by the rapture. 

Now, the next three trumpets are attached to the 3 "woes". This is the start of the 3.5 year tribulation initiated by a star falling from heaven and opening the "pit". The great furnace is a phrase attached to the 3.5 year tribulation. The 7th church is told to buy "gold that is refined by fire". The other churches are warned of being cast into this furnace. Here we also see that for 5 months no one dies! The start of the A/C reign will coincide with a period of 5 months were no one will die (except maybe by beheading?). This is the deception of the A/C having a mortal wound but not dying from it. Perception of immortality. The locusts have all the earmarks of being Godly (crowns of gold, faces of men, hair of a woman, teeth of a lion, and breastplates of iron), but notice the tiny word "like" or "as" which means fake. Their Godliness is fake. These are things that will deceive "even the elect" if that were possible. 

The 6th trumpet/2nd woe mentions the 'four horns' which are also seen in Zech 1:14-21 as the ones who scattered Israel, but now they will be the ones to draw them together (carpenters). 

The 7th trumpet/3rd woe is interrupted by an announcement of a little book that was now open, BUT John is told NOT TO WRITE. John is told to "seal up" what was said. Later on He is told that he must write again? What is all this? Apparently, he will be the one to write ANOTHER prophecy book, this time I believe it will be for the Millennium.

The final trumpet/3rd woe merely states that all will be finished "in the days of" this last trumpet. 

Chapter 11 then reverts back to the start of the 3.5 years again with a new vision of the rapture (temple in heaven being measured) as a time stamped introduction to the two witnesses. They are killed at the end of the 3.5 years and the third woe/7th trumpet follows very quickly. That does NOT mean weeks or months.

The temple in heaven is opened again after being closed at the rapture.

The woman giving birth is Israel. The 'Man' was Jesus (past), but the 'Child' is the church (rapture). Now, we see the war in heaven mentioned earlier. Satan is cast out (implied first) - 3rd trumpet? Followed by his angels (4th trumpet?). His time is "short" = only 3.5 years. The woman also has ONLY 3.5 years. 

The next chapter (13), parallels what is written in Daniel 7.

Next we see the judgments of the great whore, but her vision comes later. We see various 'harvests' described. The rapture involves Jesus coming in the clouds (not seen). The gathering of grapes (those thrown into the final tribulation), and the 'first resurrection'/2nd coming at the end of the tribulation period which involves angels doing the gathering (the four horns).

The bowls come AFTER the 2nd coming. Evidenced by 15:2 - the 2nd coming resurrection of "those who HAD gotten victory over the beast, his image, and his mark". These can ONLY be referring to the final 3.5 year tribulation.

The whore "sits" (rules over) many "waters" (believers). "She" a religion/theology is the "mother" of ALL "harlots". She "sits" on the red beast during the tribulation. All religions will unite under "her", at least for little while. Rev 17:9 says she sits on 7 mountains (7 religions or denominations).

 

[Spock]

2 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Of course, All visions in Revelation will fit into the same 3.5 year period. The seals begin in the first century with the release of the Holy Spirit (TRUE Gospel). As some here also agree, the 6th seal is the rapture which is tied in with the start of the 3.5 years.

So many different groups of people and individuals are described in their own 'vision' and so, ALL of them cannot be described as ONE vision. It requires each vision to be described individually. Sorry this will be lengthy. But I will try my best to summarize.

The Trumpets also begin at the start of this same period. Right before the first trumpet fire from the altar is cast INTO the earth. This represents the "dead" Christians rapture. Remember, those who are alive shall NOT be taken until a split second AFTER the dead. The first seal represents the living "worthy" Christians as depicted in the 6th church (Philadelphia), the 6th seal, & the great multitude. Green grass and trees represent obedient believers. Burning represents sanctification just like the altar sacrifices. The 2nd trumpet represents the left-behind un-worthy disobedient 'believers' (those who were spat out - the 7th church of Laodicea).

The 3rd trumpet shows a great star falling from heaven and "burning as it were a lamp". It seems like a lamp similar to the ones seen in Rev 1 which are spirits of God, but notice this one is an impostor and causes everything it touches to become bitter (false teachings = Prov 5:1-5). It falls on 1/3 of the "fountains of waters" and "rivers" which represent the believers (fresh water). So, this impostor is able to convince 1/3 of the left-behind church to turn away from the right path and follow him. Could be this is Satan, the false prophet, or the Beast. What happens right after the rapture? The 6th seal says people will be running to the "mountains" and asking them to protect them "from the wrath to come". Mountains in prophecy represent churches or belief systems. What will the churches be like AFTER the rapture? Will the "left-behind Christians" repent or will they say something like "AMEN, the 'tares' have been removed leaving only the true believers to take dominion over the earth? 

The 4th trumpet sees 1/3 of the stars, moon and sun darkened. This ties in with Rev 12 and these things are tied together in Isa 13:1-11 and Luke 24:25. Notice the "multitude being called out of every nation" and the "birth pangs" (both tied to the rapture). 1 Cor. 15:39-44 speaks of celestial things and earthly things - the spiritual and the natural are linked together. That is the connection that shows how stars (lights) in heaven are representative of those who are living on earth "in faith". When we turn from that faith (reject Jesus/God/ righteousness) a "light" goes out in heaven. I know, this may seem strange at first, but the Biblical connection can be seen in prophecy. We also see the dragon later on being cast out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels after the 'war in heaven' which is kicked off by the rapture. 

Now, the next three trumpets are attached to the 3 "woes". This is the start of the 3.5 year tribulation initiated by a star falling from heaven and opening the "pit". The great furnace is a phrase attached to the 3.5 year tribulation. The 7th church is told to buy "gold that is refined by fire". The other churches are warned of being cast into this furnace. Here we also see that for 5 months no one dies! The start of the A/C reign will coincide with a period of 5 months were no one will die (except maybe by beheading?). This is the deception of the A/C having a mortal wound but not dying from it. Perception of immortality. The locusts have all the earmarks of being Godly (crowns of gold, faces of men, hair of a woman, teeth of a lion, and breastplates of iron), but notice the tiny word "like" or "as" which means fake. Their Godliness is fake. These are things that will deceive "even the elect" if that were possible. 

The 6th trumpet/2nd woe mentions the 'four horns' which are also seen in Zech 1:14-21 as the ones who scattered Israel, but now they will be the ones to draw them together (carpenters). 

The 7th trumpet/3rd woe is interrupted by an announcement of a little book that was now open, BUT John is told NOT TO WRITE. John is told to "seal up" what was said. Later on He is told that he must write again? What is all this? Apparently, he will be the one to write ANOTHER prophecy book, this time I believe it will be for the Millennium.

The final trumpet/3rd woe merely states that all will be finished "in the days of" this last trumpet. 

Chapter 11 then reverts back to the start of the 3.5 years again with a new vision of the rapture (temple in heaven being measured) as a time stamped introduction to the two witnesses. They are killed at the end of the 3.5 years and the third woe/7th trumpet follows very quickly. That does NOT mean weeks or months.

The temple in heaven is opened again after being closed at the rapture.

The woman giving birth is Israel. The 'Man' was Jesus (past), but the 'Child' is the church (rapture). Now, we see the war in heaven mentioned earlier. Satan is cast out (implied first) - 3rd trumpet? Followed by his angels (4th trumpet?). His time is "short" = only 3.5 years. The woman also has ONLY 3.5 years. 

The next chapter (13), parallels what is written in Daniel 7.

Next we see the judgments of the great whore, but her vision comes later. We see various 'harvests' described. The rapture involves Jesus coming in the clouds (not seen). The gathering of grapes (those thrown into the final tribulation), and the 'first resurrection'/2nd coming at the end of the tribulation period which involves angels doing the gathering (the four horns).

The bowls come AFTER the 2nd coming. Evidenced by 15:2 - the 2nd coming resurrection of "those who HAD gotten victory over the beast, his image, and his mark". These can ONLY be referring to the final 3.5 year tribulation.

The whore "sits" (rules over) many "waters" (believers). "She" a religion/theology is the "mother" of ALL "harlots". She "sits" on the red beast during the tribulation. All religions will unite under "her", at least for little while. Rev 17:9 says she sits on 7 mountains (7 religions or denominations).

 

Hi Donkey,

Thanks for sharing this. Before I get into the details, I see you have chosen to make the trumpets allegorical.  I’m not saying this is wrong but I have been taught, unless what is written doesn’t make sense, use common sense. 

So, do you believe the literal interpretation of the trumpets just doesn’t  make sense, thus you believe to allegorize is the way to go? 

In addition, where does your interpretations come from?  The Bible or elsewhere?

For example you said, “green grass and trees are symbolic of BELIEVERS.”  How did you arrive at that conclusion? 

You said the 2nd trumpet “like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea and 1/3 of the sea became blood killing one third of the living things and ships” and this represented UNBELIEVERS.  Again, where does this come from?

You also said the opening of the trumpets begins the 3.5 year period, but later on you said the 5th trumpet kicks off the 3.5 year period.  Which is it?  It seems to me you said earlier the trumpets start the 3.5 period. Just making sure here. 

i won’t go on until I see your response on this. Thanks.

spock

Edited February 27, 2019 by Spock

[Revelation Man]

On 2/26/2019 at 10:47 AM, Spock said:

Ok Rev Man, here we go with those numbers.....(holding breath) 

i read what you wrote twice and I have to be honest with you, I want to see this as you say, but my mind (or heart?) is just preventing  me to do so.  So, either I just haven’t been won over yet or maybe I’m missing something, or maybe I’m not meant to accept it. Not sure which one, so let’s keep the dialog going.

It' the ole Mens Traditions, its hard to see things after we have been conditioned with other ideas. But remember, this was supposed to be a riddle locked up until the End Times when Knowledge and Traveled increased. So these secrets of God, when spoken about were not meant to be understood until the very end, so God gave us a riddle of all riddles !! Only in these last days has He chosen to reveal these deep secrets, but only to those that don't allow Mens Traditions to overpower their thinking {like I used to}. To e this is simple, because I see it, no one else does, but I suspect guys called to prophecy would see it. In verse 6 and 7 we are clearly told that the End of these Wonders will be 126o days and what do you think ends these wonders ? Well of course the Second Coming in 126o days will end these wonders when Jesus shows up, I mean we know the Beast shows up at the Middle of the week {1260} so of course he is what end these wonders in a time, times and half time {1260 days}. 

So it just obvious to me, a prophecy guy, that the other two are the exact same kind of prophetic uttering's, God is perfect in his symbolism, we just are not perfectly capable of seeing that at times. If one number is a set number of days until the Second Coming ends these wonders, all three are the exact same thing. And no matter what we thought in the past, God never changed its meaning.  People actually think these are numbers that bleed over into the 1000 year reign. That is mind boggling to me how one can come to that conclusion, even when I did not understand the Prophecy, I never once though that, it just makes no sense. 

On 2/26/2019 at 10:47 AM, Spock said:

This makes more sense to me:

We could say that at the end of the 1,260 days Jesus returns. At the end of the 1,290 days, Jesus’ government is officially installed. At the end of the 1,335 days the nations are judged (Matthew 25:31-46).

We could say that but it doesn't match what the Scriptures say, the scriptures are speaking about the Second Coming ending these wonders. In Dan. 12:8 Daniel asks the same question, what will be the end of ALL THESE THINGS, then he is told from the AoD it will be 1260 days [UNTIL ALL THESE WONDERS END]. Therefore 1335 has to be the exact same set up. 

On 2/26/2019 at 10:47 AM, Spock said:

To me where to put the 1290 event is not as clear as the 1335 event.  The way I visualize the second coming, is that Yeshua returns after 1260 from the mid point of the week.....I am not 100% sure the AOD has to be at that midpoint. I think it is, but I’m going to say I’m not 100% sure and will look at it again. I then believe there will be a lot going on from the day Yeshua returns until the Millennial Kingdom is set up. For example, I believe the sheep and goats Judgment of Matt 25:31 will take place during this period and I know that may take some time.  Thus, I see it makes sense to add the days AFTER the Lord returns in order to accomplish the many tasks at hand.  After all, the survivors of the planet will still not know what is going on and the MK clearly can’t begin until we know who made the cut and who didn’t. That will take time.....thus the 45 days.

Again, you miss the BIG PICTURE here, Dan. 7 is about the End of this Age, not the 1000 year reign. Daniel 12 starts out speaking about when these "GREATEST EVER TROUBLES" will be upon Israel, and when the Saints {Jewish Saints} will arise and stand on their lot at the end. I for the life of me can't understand why people understand the first is 1260 days to the Second Coming, but can't see the other two are the exact same thing. But it is what it is I guess. I pointed out all of the reasons why it fits, if it didn't fit the Scriptures I would have discounted it as an anomaly, but it fits everything else that I have been studying. It even fits logic. Why would an all knowing God not warn His people BEFORE the Beast Conquers Israel ? When one thinks about this logically, instead of thinking the Beast has to be the AoD, then it makes sense, God would indeed warn His people before they get Conquered to fell Judea for the Mountains. Let me break it down to our level, and we know God is all knowing and we aren't.

If you or I knew that 7 months from now our hometowns were going to be Conquered by a Hitler like nation, would we tell them that when you see "Hitler" riding in on a tank FLEE ? No, if we knew all he future, like God does, we would tell them, "HEY GUYS", this Evil Man {like Hitler} is coming in 7 months, so in 6 Months you will see "THIS HAPPEN",  and when you see it, FLEE Judea, and don't look back !! Well of course we would warn them in advance, and God is way smarter than we are. It doesn't past the smell test that the 1290 happens at the same time as the Beast Conquers Israel. It's just not logical.  What does the Sheep and Goat judgment have to do with the phrase, ALL THESE WONDERS WILL END ? That is the pointed Emphasis, everyone just skips right over it. It's about when these wonders will end, no the 1000 year reign years, the WONDERS END before that !! The truth is that is what you always believed, so like all of us, you have a hard time seeing past those teaching, but you aren't the only one. God knows everything beforehand, its not going to take God time to Judge the wicked, He kills those who are evil, that is the Separation !! It will happen instantaneously brother. Amen.

 

Reread the actual scriptures sometime brother. It's all good. My mom has been having some health issues, sorry about not getting back with you sooner. Gotta run get her medicine in a minute. Nothing wrong with not seeing something brother. As long as one desires the truth it will eventually come to him. God Bless.