Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Spock said:

Hi Donkey,

Thanks for sharing this. Before I get into the details, I see you have chosen to make the trumpets allegorical.  I’m not saying this is wrong but I have been taught, unless what is written doesn’t make sense, use common sense. 

So, do you believe the literal interpretation of the trumpets just doesn’t  make sense, thus you believe to allegorize is the way to go? 

In addition, where does your interpretations come from?  The Bible or elsewhere?

For example you said, “green grass and trees are symbolic of BELIEVERS.”  How did you arrive at that conclusion? 

You said the 2nd trumpet “like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea and 1/3 of the sea became blood killing one third of the living things and ships” and this represented UNBELIEVERS.  Again, where does this come from?

You also said the opening of the trumpets begins the 3.5 year period, but later on you said the 5th trumpet kicks off the 3.5 year period.  Which is it?  It seems to me you said earlier the trumpets start the 3.5 period. Just making sure here. 

i won’t go on until I see your response on this. Thanks.

spock

I think it is a mistake to NOT take the trumpets as literal as possible. I think the first three trumpets are warning us of nuclear war.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think it is a mistake to NOT take the trumpets as literal as possible. I think the first three trumpets are warning us of nuclear war.

How can a nuclear attack only destroy 1/3 of the trees and only burn up 1/3 of the grass. Even 1/3 of the whole earth is really huge and would then also pretty much destroy all life (fallout and such). 

Look again at the START of the verses ... 

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

⁴ And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

⁵ And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

All the details within these three verses suggest what I am thinking is probably more accurate. "Voices, thunder, lightning and a earthquake" indicate supernatural something is going on here and should not be ignored or pushed aside as something insignificant like saying it is just a sign or warning.  

The dead must rise first - and they are here as the altar fire is directed INTO the earth. The first trumpet is about to sound, so it does make sense to assume the things I am saying.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

You said (to Rev. Man)

We could say that at the end of the 1,260 days Jesus returns. At the end of the 1,290 days, Jesus’ government is officially installed. At the end of the 1,335 days the nations are judged (Matthew 25:31-46).

To me where to put the 1290 event is not as clear as the 1335 event.  The way I visualize the second coming, is that Yeshua returns after 1260 from the mid point of the week.....I am not 100% sure the AOD has to be at that midpoint. I think it is, but I’m going to say I’m not 100% sure and will look at it again. I then believe there will be a lot going on from the day Yeshua returns until the Millennial Kingdom is set up. For example, I believe the sheep and goats Judgment of Matt 25:31 will take place during this period and I know that may take some time.  Thus, I see it makes sense to add the days AFTER the Lord returns in order to accomplish the many tasks at hand.  After all, the survivors of the planet will still not know what is going on and the MK clearly can’t begin until we know who made the cut and who didn’t. That will take time.....thus the 45 days.

Hi Spock,

I agree with some of your thinking there, bro. Let`s do the diagram.

 

......I.............................................I............I..............I...>                                                                                                                                  .      .A/D                     (1,260 days)                        30               45

 

1,260 days Jesus returns. (as you said) (Rev. 13: 5) deals with the world`s armies outside Jerusalem, (Joel 3: 2) & judges nations, (Matt. 25: 31 - 46)

This will be done very quickly as people are all over the earth. The Lord is omniscient, (all knowing) and judges their hearts, - one taken in judgment and one is left to go into the millennium.(Luke 17: 34 - 36)

1,290 cleansing of the temple. (Dan. 12: 11)

1, 335 `Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the 1,335 days.` (Dan. 12: 12) This will be the most blessed, happy time for Israel to celebrate their deliverance by their Messiah. That day is celebrated every year in Israel as the Feast of Purim. The time when Israel was delivered from their enemies. However at the 1,335 days it will be the fulfilment of their final deliverance. In Jerusalem it is celebrated on the 15th of Adar, and the second Adar (every three years)  is the most blessed time.

 

.....I.......................................................I...................I................I.........15th.........> Millennium

   A/D                   1,260 days                    30 (1,290)     30 (Adar 1)  15th of Adar 2.  (1,335)

 

Thus we have a specific date! from which all the others can be taken. (We are not in darkness that this day should overtake us as a thief. A fact which you mentioned earlier). 

 

Enjoying the discussion, Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Of course, All visions in Revelation will fit into the same 3.5 year period. The seals begin in the first century with the release of the Holy Spirit (TRUE Gospel). As some here also agree, the 6th seal is the rapture which is tied in with the start of the 3.5 years.

So many different groups of people and individuals are described in their own 'vision' and so, ALL of them cannot be described as ONE vision. It requires each vision to be described individually. Sorry this will be lengthy. But I will try my best to summarize.

The Trumpets also begin at the start of this same period. Right before the first trumpet fire from the altar is cast INTO the earth. This represents the "dead" Christians rapture. Remember, those who are alive shall NOT be taken until a split second AFTER the dead. The first seal represents the living "worthy" Christians as depicted in the 6th church (Philadelphia), the 6th seal, & the great multitude. Green grass and trees represent obedient believers. Burning represents sanctification just like the altar sacrifices. The 2nd trumpet represents the left-behind un-worthy disobedient 'believers' (those who were spat out - the 7th church of Laodicea).

The 3rd trumpet shows a great star falling from heaven and "burning as it were a lamp". It seems like a lamp similar to the ones seen in Rev 1 which are spirits of God, but notice this one is an impostor and causes everything it touches to become bitter (false teachings = Prov 5:1-5). It falls on 1/3 of the "fountains of waters" and "rivers" which represent the believers (fresh water). So, this impostor is able to convince 1/3 of the left-behind church to turn away from the right path and follow him. Could be this is Satan, the false prophet, or the Beast. What happens right after the rapture? The 6th seal says people will be running to the "mountains" and asking them to protect them "from the wrath to come". Mountains in prophecy represent churches or belief systems. What will the churches be like AFTER the rapture? Will the "left-behind Christians" repent or will they say something like "AMEN, the 'tares' have been removed leaving only the true believers to take dominion over the earth? 

The 4th trumpet sees 1/3 of the stars, moon and sun darkened. This ties in with Rev 12 and these things are tied together in Isa 13:1-11 and Luke 24:25. Notice the "multitude being called out of every nation" and the "birth pangs" (both tied to the rapture). 1 Cor. 15:39-44 speaks of celestial things and earthly things - the spiritual and the natural are linked together. That is the connection that shows how stars (lights) in heaven are representative of those who are living on earth "in faith". When we turn from that faith (reject Jesus/God/ righteousness) a "light" goes out in heaven. I know, this may seem strange at first, but the Biblical connection can be seen in prophecy. We also see the dragon later on being cast out of heaven along with 1/3 of the angels after the 'war in heaven' which is kicked off by the rapture. 

Now, the next three trumpets are attached to the 3 "woes". This is the start of the 3.5 year tribulation initiated by a star falling from heaven and opening the "pit". The great furnace is a phrase attached to the 3.5 year tribulation. The 7th church is told to buy "gold that is refined by fire". The other churches are warned of being cast into this furnace. Here we also see that for 5 months no one dies! The start of the A/C reign will coincide with a period of 5 months were no one will die (except maybe by beheading?). This is the deception of the A/C having a mortal wound but not dying from it. Perception of immortality. The locusts have all the earmarks of being Godly (crowns of gold, faces of men, hair of a woman, teeth of a lion, and breastplates of iron), but notice the tiny word "like" or "as" which means fake. Their Godliness is fake. These are things that will deceive "even the elect" if that were possible. 

The 6th trumpet/2nd woe mentions the 'four horns' which are also seen in Zech 1:14-21 as the ones who scattered Israel, but now they will be the ones to draw them together (carpenters). 

The 7th trumpet/3rd woe is interrupted by an announcement of a little book that was now open, BUT John is told NOT TO WRITE. John is told to "seal up" what was said. Later on He is told that he must write again? What is all this? Apparently, he will be the one to write ANOTHER prophecy book, this time I believe it will be for the Millennium.

The final trumpet/3rd woe merely states that all will be finished "in the days of" this last trumpet. 

Chapter 11 then reverts back to the start of the 3.5 years again with a new vision of the rapture (temple in heaven being measured) as a time stamped introduction to the two witnesses. They are killed at the end of the 3.5 years and the third woe/7th trumpet follows very quickly. That does NOT mean weeks or months.

The temple in heaven is opened again after being closed at the rapture.

The woman giving birth is Israel. The 'Man' was Jesus (past), but the 'Child' is the church (rapture). Now, we see the war in heaven mentioned earlier. Satan is cast out (implied first) - 3rd trumpet? Followed by his angels (4th trumpet?). His time is "short" = only 3.5 years. The woman also has ONLY 3.5 years. 

The next chapter (13), parallels what is written in Daniel 7.

Next we see the judgments of the great whore, but her vision comes later. We see various 'harvests' described. The rapture involves Jesus coming in the clouds (not seen). The gathering of grapes (those thrown into the final tribulation), and the 'first resurrection'/2nd coming at the end of the tribulation period which involves angels doing the gathering (the four horns).

The bowls come AFTER the 2nd coming. Evidenced by 15:2 - the 2nd coming resurrection of "those who HAD gotten victory over the beast, his image, and his mark". These can ONLY be referring to the final 3.5 year tribulation.

The whore "sits" (rules over) many "waters" (believers). "She" a religion/theology is the "mother" of ALL "harlots". She "sits" on the red beast during the tribulation. All religions will unite under "her", at least for little while. Rev 17:9 says she sits on 7 mountains (7 religions or denominations).

Sorry, but it simply does not work to force 7 years of events into 3.5 years.  The truth is, the trumpets come in the first half and the vials in the second half, and the week is divided when the man of sin enters the temple and defiles it, forcing the cessation of the daily sacrifices. 

I still want to see you divide half an apple and still end up with two halves.

The bowls come in the second half, and the third coming (He comes the 2nd time FOR His saints; the 3rd time WITH His saints) is not in the week at all, but some time AFTER the week. The week ends in chapter 16 with the 7th bowl, but Jesus does not return until chapter 19. There are EVENTS that will take place after the week and before He comes.

Why not just believe John: the whore is a CITY. It is the city of Jerusalem when the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving THE WORLD from that city. I do agree though that Buddhists and Hindus in general will be deceived and will follow the Beast - as will all other false religions. ALL will be deceived except those whose names are written in heaven.

Right before the first trumpet fire from the altar is cast INTO the earth. This represents the "dead" Christians rapture.  NO, the rapture will take place before any trumpet: the trumpets are a part of God's wrath. It is God systematically destroying the earth - as the Old Testament tells us the DAY is all about. You are simply mistaken here.  The first and third trumpets are warning us of nuclear war.

The first seal represents the living "worthy" Christians as depicted in the 6th church (Philadelphia), the 6th seal, & the great multitude.  Sorry, disagree again. The first seal is the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world. Jesus opened this seal as soon as He ascended and took the book. 

Green grass and trees represent obedient believers. Burning represents sanctification just like the altar sacrifices.  No, green grass is what cows and sheep eat. Did you not read? It is the start of the Day of the Lord, where God will begin to destroy the earth.

 ¹⁶Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 1:18

How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

¹⁹ O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

²⁰ The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

The 2nd trumpet represents the left-behind un-worthy disobedient 'believers'  No, sorry. I think it is literal, and the same thing Moses did: turned water into blood. 

It falls on 1/3 of the "fountains of waters" and "rivers" which represent the believers (fresh water).  No, Chernobyl translated is wormwood. It is also the site of the worst nuclear disaster in the world. This is warning us of nuclear war.  The rapture will have taken place before any trumpets - which come with His wrath. So any believers will be new believers since the rapture. There will only be a remnant of the church left.

So, this impostor is able to convince 1/3 of the left-behind church to turn away from the right path and follow him.   No, no one at this time will know who the Antichrist Beast is, because he will not be revealed until the midpoint of the week.

Mountains in prophecy represent churches or belief systems. No, here it is REAL mountains with holes and caves. People are scared out of their wits because they know THE DAY has started - or is about to start. Read Isaiah 2. 

This ties in with Rev 12 and these things are tied together in Isa 13:1-11 and Luke 24:25. Notice the "multitude being called out of every nation" and the "birth pangs" (both tied to the rapture)  Why not just take this literal and know that God controls the lights in the sky? AGain, at this time the rapture is HISTORY. This is inside the 70th week  - you know, that 7 year period you have shortened to 3.5 years!

after the 'war in heaven' which is kicked off by the rapture.   Sorry, but you have TOTALLY misplaced Paul's rapture: it must come BEFORE the wrath of God. His wrath starts before any trumpet or with the first trumpet. The rapture therefore is BEFORE any trumpet judgment. Why not just believe Paul? The rapture is between the 5th and 6th seals.

Now, the next three trumpets are attached to the 3 "woes". This is the start of the 3.5 year tribulation   Wrong again. The DAY of the Lord will begin with the 6th seal, and the 70th week (yes, the entire week) will begin with the 7th seal. The entire week is marked by 7's. Believe it: it is truth.

The start of the A/C reign will coincide with a period of 5 months were no one will die (except maybe by beheading?). Where do you come up with this stuff? John does not get introduced to the Antichrist Beast until chapter 13, AFTER the man of sin will have entered the temple and declared he is GOD - which will stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week.  All John is telling us is that these flying beasties are not allowed to kill people, just torture them. The "reign" of the Antichrist will  not begin until after he is revealed - after the midpoint of the week. Your theory falls apart because you don't have a week in your theory. Sorry, John DOES.

The final trumpet/3rd woe merely states that all will be finished "in the days of" this last trumpet.   What is this "mystery that is finished at the 7th trumpet? It is the reign of satan as the spiritual ruler of this earth. Adam's 6000 year lease ENDS. Suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to earth.

Chapter 11 then reverts back to the start of the 3.5 years again with a new vision of the rapture (temple in heaven being measured) as a time stamped introduction to the two witnesses. They are killed at the end of the 3.5 years and the third woe/7th trumpet follows very quickly. That does NOT mean weeks or months. Sorry, but this is nonsense. Chapter 11 begins just before the midpoint of the week. (Since you don't have a week, your theory fails.) What is verses 1 & 2 all about? It is the man of sin entering Jerusalem with his armies. In a few days he will enter the temple, so he must first ARRIVE in Jerusalem. His Gentile armies will trample the city for 42 real 30 days months. OF COURSE it means months: the last half of the week. 

You have a chance to learn, or reject. The choice is yours to make. 

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

How can a nuclear attack only destroy 1/3 of the trees and only burn up 1/3 of the grass. Even 1/3 of the whole earth is really huge and would then also pretty much destroy all life (fallout and such). 

Look again at the START of the verses ... 

And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

⁴ And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

⁵ And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

All the details within these three verses suggest what I am thinking is probably more accurate. "Voices, thunder, lightning and a earthquake" indicate supernatural something is going on here and should not be ignored or pushed aside as something insignificant like saying it is just a sign or warning.  

The dead must rise first - and they are here as the altar fire is directed INTO the earth. The first trumpet is about to sound, so it does make sense to assume the things I am saying.

I don't think the entire planet is what is being talked about.  I agree, I think it was a REAL earthquake. It is the begining of God destroying the earth. Did you not read?

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 

God's purpose in THE DAY is to destroy the earth. The trumpets start with 1/3 destruction, but the vials are 100%.

 

God's dead as in those "in Christ" have already risen and at the first trumpet are in heaven. 

[Marilyn C]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think the entire planet is what is being talked about.  I agree, I think it was a REAL earthquake. It is the begining of God destroying the earth. Did you not read?

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 

God's purpose in THE DAY is to destroy the earth. The trumpets start with 1/3 destruction, but the vials are 100%.

 

God's dead as in those "in Christ" have already risen and at the first trumpet are in heaven. 

Hi iamlamad,

I agree with some of what your have said but not this -

God`s purpose is NOT to destroy the earth -

` And He should destroy THOSE WHO DESTROY THE EARTH.` (Rev. 11: 18)

Also there is a Day of the Lord - period of time, and a Day of the Lord, specific day. The great earthquake, sun and moon etc are just before the Lord comes on the specific Day of the Lord, as shown in Joel 3: 15 & 16,  Rev. 6: 12 - 17 & Matt. 24: 29 & 30.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

I agree with some of what your have said but not this -

God`s purpose is NOT to destroy the earth -

` And He should destroy THOSE WHO DESTROY THE EARTH.` (Rev. 11: 18c)

Also there is a Day of the Lord - period of time, and a Day of the Lord, specific day. The great earthquake, sun and moon etc are just before the Lord comes on the specific Day of the Lord, as shown in Joel 3: 15 & 16,  Rev. 6: 12 - 17 & Matt. 24: 29 & 30.

Marilyn.

What about this part of it:  "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate"

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate.

Is turning the sea into blood a kind of destruction?

Is an earthquake so violent that the mountains sink into plains a kind of destruction? It will destroy every city!

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The bowls come in the second half, and the third coming (He comes the 2nd time FOR His saints; the 3rd time WITH His saints) is not in the week at all, but some time AFTER the week.

Okay??? So now, not only is the cross OUTSIDE of the 70 weeks, but ALSO the 2nd coming. DO you not see that you have completely deleted Jesus from the entire 70 weeks? 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The first seal represents the living "worthy" Christians as depicted in the 6th church (Philadelphia), the 6th seal, & the great multitude.  Sorry, disagree again. The first seal is the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world. Jesus opened this seal as soon as He ascended and took the book. 

Sorry, mistyped - it should say the first "Trumpet" - NOT seal. You should know by now that I say the same thing about the first seal.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, green grass is what cows and sheep eat. Did you not read? It is the start of the Day of the Lord, where God will begin to destroy the earth.

 ¹⁶Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 1:18

How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

¹⁹ O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

²⁰ The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

Interesting. Do you realize the context of this refers to the 2nd coming? Look at chapter 2 and notice the locusts.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

What about this part of it:  "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate"

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate.

Is turning the sea into blood a kind of destruction?

Is an earthquake so violent that the mountains sink into plains a kind of destruction? It will destroy every city!

Hi iamlamad,

Yes I think it is just a matter of terminology. However when you wrote `God's purpose in THE DAY is to destroy the earth,` it had more of a wiping out of the whole earth. Glad you clarified it for us. I should have asked, sorry.

Marilyn.