Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, Spock said:

This post of yours really does upset me LAmad.  Because it shows me you NEVER BOTHER to read my posts. 

No where have I ever said the seals, trumpets, and bowls are NOT SEQUENCED, NOWHERE. Yet, this post of yours accuses me of that.

Just like you accuse me of putting the church in God’s wrath when I have never done that. 

For the record, here is my tentative proposed timeline one more time....

Seals 1-4 maybe already opened in past; if not in past immediately after peace treaty, start of week

Seals 5 and 6 released around the 3 year mark

Rapture at 6th seal

Trumpets 1-4 released

AOD, 2 witnesses, 2 beasts rise up

5th trumpet

Two witnesses die and 6th trumpet/7th trumpet

7 bowls

Return of Jesus

45 days of transitioning

Start of MK

No need to get upset! We are all trying to learn truth.  I know you know, John numbered some things for sequencing.  OF COURSE I read your posts. Like I said, if it was not so sad, some of your posts would be funny. 

My point was, if John was so careful to number so many things, to keep people from rearranging them, why would anyone expect the rest of the book would be in some mixed up order?  I have never expected that. In the Olivet Discourse, it seems Jesus took His listeners from their point in time  - straight through time  - to the 70th week.  I think He does the same thing in Revelation, but in much more detail. 

Indeed, of you have the rapture in chapter 12, you are putting the church into the wrath felt in the trumpets. Perhaps you just having figured that out yet. Always remember, seals come before trumpets, and trumpets come before vials. Always and forever. And the seals are sealing the book that gets Satan kicked out. As soon as all seals are opened, the book is opened - to reveal the trumpet judgments. If you pick a time for the rapture after all 7 trumpets - which you have done - then you put the church in God's wrath.

OK, since you never mention it, do you just ignore the information giving in Daniel 9:27? Can we talk about that verse?  I think in almost every translation it is clear: some event will divide the 70th week into two equal halves. It will be the same event that stops the daily sacrifices. Do you agree?

Do you agree that all seals must be opened before any trumpets sounded?

If you believe "Two witnesses die and 6th trumpet/7th trumpet" Then you MUST believe that the trumpets get spread out to the end of the week. OR, the two witnesses do most of their testifying in the first half of the week. Which is it?

I am guessing you imagine the trumpets spread out to the end of the week. Where then do you put the vials? Do you mix the trumpets in with the vials? 

How do you compare the 1260 days of the two witnesses with the 1260 days of fleeing? Do you not seem them as parallel- both happening at the same time?

How do you compare the 42 months of trampling with the 42 months of authority? Do you see them as parallel?

Finally, I MUST ask: do you not put ANY weight on the words Jesus spoke to me? Do you think maybe I just made them up? 

Here are some of His words: "Every time I mentioned an event that goes from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of this 3 1/2 year period of time, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

Do these words not tell us that all five mentions of this period of time are then parallel and go from the midpoint to the end of the week? 

Do these words not tell us that the midpoint of the week then MUST BE in chapters 11 through 13? 

Edited March 16, 2019 by iamlamad

[Spock]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No need to get upset! We are all trying to learn truth.  I know you know, John numbered some things for sequencing.  OF COURSE I read your posts. Like I said, if it was not so sad, some of your posts would be funny. 

My point was, if John was so careful to number so many things, to keep people from rearranging them, why would anyone expect the rest of the book would be in some mixed up order?  I have never expected that. In the Olivet Discourse, it seems Jesus took His listeners from their point in time  - straight through time  - to the 70th week.  I think He does the same thing in Revelation, but in much more detail. 

Indeed, of you have the rapture in chapter 12, you are putting the church into the wrath felt in the trumpets. Perhaps you just having figured that out yet. Always remember, seals come before trumpets, and trumpets come before vials. Always and forever. And the seals are sealing the book that gets Satan kicked out. As soon as all seals are opened, the book is opened - to reveal the trumpet judgments. If you pick a time for the rapture after all 7 trumpets - which you have done - then you put the church in God's wrath.

OK, since you never mention it, do you just ignore the information giving in Daniel 9:27? Can we talk about that verse?  I think in almost every translation it is clear: some event will divide the 70th week into two equal halves. It will be the same event that stops the daily sacrifices. Do you agree?

Do you agree that all seals must be opened before any trumpets sounded?

If you believe "Two witnesses die and 6th trumpet/7th trumpet" Then you MUST believe that the trumpets get spread out to the end of the week. OR, the two witnesses do most of their testifying in the first half of the week. Which is it?

I am guessing you imagine the trumpets spread out to the end of the week. Where then do you put the vials? Do you mix the trumpets in with the vials? 

How do you compare the 1260 days of the two witnesses with the 1260 days of fleeing? Do you not seem them as parallel- both happening at the same time?

How do you compare the 42 months of trampling with the 42 months of authority? Do you see them as parallel?

Finally, I MUST ask: do you not put ANY weight on the words Jesus spoke to me? Do you think maybe I just made them up? 

Here are some of His words: "Every time I mentioned an event that goes from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of this 3 1/2 year period of time, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

Do these words not tell us that all five mentions of this period of time are then parallel and go from the midpoint to the end of the week? 

Do these words not tell us that the midpoint of the week then MUST BE in chapters 11 through 13? 

You know I love you LAmad, but I can’t continue discussing this with you if you continue to ignore my words. Why should I write them? 

Notice what you said...do you agree that all the seals precede the trumpets?  This tells me you did not read my timeline. I even put it in order going down. You should know this answer by looking at my timeline. You should also know where I put the opening of the trumpets 1-4 in my timeline (hint, before midpoint, AFTER THE RAPTURE.)

And lastly, I am not putting the church in the wrath experiencing the trumpets. Just because I see the rapture in 12:5 does not mean I am putting them in the wrath. I told you, I see chapters 11-14 as time out chapters, interludes, to explain the characters. I don’t care if the trumpets are opened in chapters 8 and 9 which I know comes before chapter 12.  Remember what I think.....time out chapters only, not meant to follow a chronology except from within its chapter. 

I wont repeat this ever again. 

[Spock]

On 3/15/2019 at 7:45 PM, Marilyn C said:

Next the nations, as the Father said He`d give them to His Son. The 4 horsemen, I believe, represent the 4 great confederacies leading to the Global Government. The Prophet Zechariah saw these as chariots going forth to bring judgment. (Zech. 6: 1 - ? We are also told that they are the 4 spirits of heaven. (Zech. 6: 5)

Daniel saw a vision of these also. Spirits/winds are the same Hebrew word. (Dan.7: 2) And they stirred up 4 Great beastly kingdoms, Federations, just before the Lord brings in His kingdom. (Dan. 7: 13, 27)

We see those 4 Great (beastly) Federations, comprising the final Global Government, in Rev. 13: 2 and 3 ½ years later we see the Lord deal with them.

 

I’m not sure you answered my first question, but here is number 2

2. Why do you think the four horsemen represent four great beasty federations? I don’t see the connection with any of them. 

White - conquering

red- war

black- famine

pale green- authority over 1/4 of the earth to kill with sword, famine, disease, wild animals 

 

These don’t look like great federations. So please make the connections for me. Try to do it as concise as possible first. If I’m interested, I will ask for more details. In other words, for now, I don’t want to read a book. Lol If this is acceptable to you.

thanks,

spock

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

Sorry, you`re right I hadn`t clearly answered your first question. So here it is.

1.Your first question -

`The seals?  I know you see them as an overview with the trumpets and bowls as the details, but regarding the timing....if you have any profound reasoning to support the timing, I’m all ears.` 

I believe the Seals are Federations, (will explain this in answer no. 2). The first 3 seals showing 3 Federations, have already arisen while the 4^th will arise after the Peace treaty. .

The anti-Christ will bring about the Peace Treaty. He is the Assyrian, as God`s word says, and that is from Iraq & Syria. (Used to be no separation there.) (Isa. 31: 8) And that area is of Islam today. Thus Islam will arise after the Peace Treaty when the anti-Christ starts to bring that great(potential) Federation together.

Note that Hell follows the 4^th seal, (Federation). I`ll do a diagram

 

[Marilyn C]

2. Your second question -

 `Why do you think the four horsemen represent four great beasty federations? I don’t see the connection with any of them. `

You know I love to study God`s word and share what I`ve been taught. So here goes -

We know that different prophets are show parts of God`s end times, and each have something to contribute. Thus from Zech. 6 we know that these `horsemen` are the 4 spirits of heaven sent by God to go throughout the earth. (Zech. 6: 5)

Then we see that the Prophet Daniel also had a vision of these 4 spirits of heaven. (spirits & winds are the same Hebrew word). Daniel saw them stirring up the Mediterranean Sea and 4 beasts come forth one at a time. (Dan. 7: 2)

We are told that these beasts are kingdoms. (Dan. 7: 23) These would be called empires, Federations or Super Powers today. And we see that these 4 kingdoms/Federations are in the time of the Lord setting up His kingdom. (Dan. 7: 11, 12, 27)

Thus although each Prophet was shown a different `picture,` they all meant the same 4 kingdoms / Federations, with each picture having some more information about them.

So looking at Daniel`s description and John`s vision we see similarities.

REVELATION 6: 2 - 6

1.White Horse

Only one crowned - Monarchy.                                                                                                                                                                    Conquering to conquer - Imperialistic.

2.Red Horse

Take away peace

Given an executioner sword

3.Black Horse

Pair of balances (scales) Measurement of produce - denoting a market economy. (Free Trade)

 

By comparison Daniel 7: 4 - 6

1.Lion

British Monarchy, Imperialistic.

2. Bear

Soviet Communists Red - Red flag - Red Army . History of wars, confrontation and invasions. K.G.B. executions in prisons and concentration camps estimated 40 million people.  

3.Leopard

Europe, Economic market. (This Union started with 4 heads of countries.)

 

 

We can do the 4th beastly Federation after you have had time to discuss the above information, if you want.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

Just another thought.

The Prophet Daniel was shown what the kingdom/Federations were like when they emerged. (eg. The Eagle came off the Lion, USA from Britain. Dan. 7: 4)

Then John was shown how the 4 spirits of heaven (as horses) were driving these Federations to Judgment. (Rev. 6: 1 - 8)

 God said - `Into the valley of Josaphat I will herd the heathen folk....` (Joel 3: 2 Knox) 

 

Marilyn.

 

`

[Spock]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Just another thought.

The Prophet Daniel was shown what the kingdom/Federations were like when they emerged. (eg. The Eagle came off the Lion, USA from Britain. Dan. 7: 4)

Then John was shown how the 4 spirits of heaven (as horses) were driving these Federations to Judgment. (Rev. 6: 1 - ?

 God said - `Into the valley of Josaphat I will herd the heathen folk....` (Joel 3: 2 Knox) 

 

Marilyn.

 

`

Thanks M. 

I regret to tell you I can’t make the connection between 4 horsemen going out (zech 6 and Rev 6) and the rise of four kingdoms. 

Ezekiel 14 : 21 tells us God’s four dreadful judgments are —sword, famine, wild beasts, and plagues —to kill its men and animals. 

Yet it seems to me you take GREAT LIBERTIES to connect 4 winds with 4 spirits ( Daniel 7 with Rev 7). Rev 7 says “I saw the 4 angels holding back the 4 winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing ON THE LAND OR ON THE SEA OR ON ANY TREE.”  This has nothing to do with the seals 4 horsemen; this refers to the angels holding back judgment on the earth which now will be released through the first 4 trumpets.  Touching the EARTH, not mankind, but the Earth  So, I don’t see how Daniel 7 = Rev 7 . 

I haven’t been able to make that connection as you seem to do quite easily. I think sometimes we find things we want to see to give us a basis to support a position we have. I’m not saying we do that with unrighteous intent but rather “accidentally.” 

Maybe your connection is spot on but I don’t see it, but always open minded. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Spock

[ARGOSY]

On 3/16/2019 at 8:04 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

There is the scripture that, I believe nails it for us.

`See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.` (Heb.12: 25 & 26)

And that reference is taken from Haggai.

`For thus says the Lord of hosts: “Once more I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations,..(Hag.2: 6 & 7)

So we see that God will shake the heaven and earth ONCE more.

Joel 3: 12 - 16

`Let the nations be wakened and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; (outside Jerusalem) for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow - for their wickedness is great.

Multitude, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, (heaven) and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake, but the Lord will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.`(Joel 3: 12 - 16)

Clearly that is the shaking God is talking about. There in Joel we see when that will happen. God has brought the world`s armies down from Armageddon, to around Jerusalem to the valley of Jehoshaphat. The heavens shake - the sun, moon and stars and the earth also.

 

Rev. 6: 12 - 17

`I looked when he opened the 6^th seal, and behold, there was a Great Earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

 

God is describing that He is shaking the heavens and earth here, and thus places this event at the end of the tribulation, just before the Lord returns in power and great glory with His angelic army.

 

Excellent stuff Marilyn! Well said.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks M. 

I regret to tell you I can’t make the connection between 4 horsemen going out (zech 6 and Rev 6) and the rise of four kingdoms. 

Ezekiel 14 : 21 tells us God’s four dreadful judgments are —sword, famine, wild beasts, and plagues —to kill its men and animals. 

Yet it seems to me you take GREAT LIBERTIES to connect 4 winds with 4 spirits ( Daniel 7 with Rev 7). Rev 7 says “I saw the 4 angels holding back the 4 winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing ON THE LAND OR ON THE SEA OR ON ANY TREE.”  This has nothing to do with the seals 4 horsemen; this refers to the angels holding back judgment on the earth which now will be released through the first 4 trumpets.  Touching the EARTH, not mankind, but the Earth  So, I don’t see how Daniel 7 = Rev 7 . 

I haven’t been able to make that connection as you seem to do quite easily. I think sometimes we find things we want to see to give us a basis to support a position we have. I’m not saying we do that with unrighteous intent but rather “accidentally.” 

Maybe your connection is spot on but I don’t see it, but always open minded. 

Oh dear Spock,

I would NEVER take GREAT LIBERTIES  with God`s word or you dear bro, (lol). So let`s have a closer look.

In Rev. 7 we see the 4 angels holding back the wind, (Gk. anemoe) so it wont blow on the earth. That is literal.

Now when we look at Daniel`s vision, (Dan. 7) of 4 winds stirring up the Great Sea,  with 4 great beasts emerging, we can visualise that. However as we read further we see that it is NOT literal, they are not beasts, but kingdoms. In v. 23 we are told -

`The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth...` (Dan. 7: 23)

So we realise that the `beasts` represent kingdoms. So do `winds` stir up kingdoms? No. Then we see in Dan. 10: 13 that there are spirit powers behind kingdoms. So we ask ourselves, `Has God`s word told us about these 4 spirits before?` And yes, in Zech. 6: 5 we read -

`These are the four spirits of heaven, who go out from their station before the Lord of all the earth.` (Zech. 6: 5)

These are 4 spirits that God would send out to do His bidding.

 

So...are those 4 (beastly) kingdoms, (stirred up by 4 spirits of heaven) related to the 4 horsemen of Rev. 6? Yes.

In Dan. 7 we read how the 4th kingdom treads down the others, (thus ruling at the same time.) Then we read how the 4th kingdom gets judged and done away with while the other three have their power taken away, but are given an extension of time. (Dan. 7: 11 & 12) This all takes place at the time of the Lord setting up His kingdom, (through Israel) on the earth. (Dan. 7: 27)

Then we know that the 4 horsemen, (not literal) are in the end times for they come forth from the scroll. So what are they? Let`s focus on the 4th horseman.

`And power was given to THEM  over a fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.` (Rev. 6: 8)

Thus we realise that the THEM is a group, a very powerful group that will kill a fourth of the earth. (wow) And because they are in the end times as Daniel`s kingdoms are, then we need to look very carefully at them both to see if there are similarities. (Look at previous list again)

 

Hope that helps, Marilyn.

[ARGOSY]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks M. 

I regret to tell you I can’t make the connection between 4 horsemen going out (zech 6 and Rev 6) and the rise of four kingdoms. 

Ezekiel 14 : 21 tells us God’s four dreadful judgments are —sword, famine, wild beasts, and plagues —to kill its men and animals. 

Yet it seems to me you take GREAT LIBERTIES to connect 4 winds with 4 spirits ( Daniel 7 with Rev 7). Rev 7 says “I saw the 4 angels holding back the 4 winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing ON THE LAND OR ON THE SEA OR ON ANY TREE.”  This has nothing to do with the seals 4 horsemen; this refers to the angels holding back judgment on the earth which now will be released through the first 4 trumpets.  Touching the EARTH, not mankind, but the Earth  So, I don’t see how Daniel 7 = Rev 7 . 

I haven’t been able to make that connection as you seem to do quite easily. I think sometimes we find things we want to see to give us a basis to support a position we have. I’m not saying we do that with unrighteous intent but rather “accidentally.” 

Maybe your connection is spot on but I don’t see it, but always open minded. 

Let me try. Often animals/beasts represent kingdoms as per Daniel 7.

These horsemen are 4 consecutive stages in world history, my personal view is they are linking the time of the 7 churches to the future aspects of Revelation. Horses being beasts, kingdoms.

White horse - symbol of crusades, the West's attempt to regain control of the Middle East. Achieved WWI through the British Empire.

Red horse - red symbol of communism starts WWI. Ruined the "Pax Britannica", cold war, communist wars everywhere. Ended with fall of the Berlin Wall 1989

Black Horse - symbol of banking, poor get poorer, rich get richer, European Capitalists control democracies and send in their Western armies to control and dominate and scare the Middle East, and take oil wealth. Do not spare the oil. Starts 1990 Gulf War. To end with the antichrist coming to power and defeating Western armies.

Green/pale Horse - symbol of Islam. Islamic control of Israel via the antichrist "Isa", a West friendly fake "Jesus/Messiah".