Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[JohnD]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 12 tells us who these saints are - that is those saints who follow Jesus:

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You see, at this time, the midpoint of the week, there is only a remnant left. The main load went out with the pretrib rapture.

What is the source of your point of this partial rapture?

This is what I cite to prove a total rapture:

2 Thessalonians 2 (NASB95)
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come*.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes FIRST, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only HE who now restrains will do so until HE is taken out of the way. ← !!!
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

* The Apostle Paul was responding to rumors (by what amounts to first century preterists) that the day of the Lord had ALREADY come.  

Full rapture of the Holy Spirit filled Body of Christ (believers / the Church) at the time the beast is revealed (shows his true colors to the Jews and the world).

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by JohnD

[JohnD]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JohnD,

You will need other scriptures to see whether those `saints` are the Body of Christ or are they Israel.

`For the Lord has chosen Zion....... and her SAINTS shall shout aloud for joy,...` (Ps. 132: 13 - 16)

There we read that God has saints in Israel.

Thus you will need other scriptures to prove your case, and not just assuming it is the Body of Christ.

Marilyn.

Howdy,

SAINTS are the people who are onboard with God's plan and commandments at a given stage of his unfolding revelation. 

It is NOT a term used (as the Catholics do) to elect people they deem worthy of the title in their traditions of man religion. 

It is NOT a given term for Jews for merely being Jewish either*. 

Recall all who opposed Jesus in his Earthly walk. He called them sons of the devil (John 8:44-45).

When you realize this, you understand the only reason one would interpret the definition of saints in Revelation 13 as pertaining to the Jews who are on Earth 

is the predetermined bias for a pre-tribulation rapture alone.

Not that I am equating anyone here with the cults and false religionists... but this is the exact methodology

of the false religionists and cults and humanists and atheists and skeptics...

"We KNOW evolution is true, therefore there can be no God..." ← for an extreme example of my point.

This is why it is crucial we submit to the Holy Spirit interpretation of the scriptures and not man's.

Be well!

______________________________________________________________________________________________

* Unlike the term chosen / elect which IS a term that refers to the Jews for just being Jewish.

BTW, Christians (both Jew and Gentile) are the chosen / elect of heaven. Jews by birth are the chosen and elect of Earth (and they always will be until

Shiloh comes to save them).

 

[JohnD]

Again, since scripture is infallible, it always puzzled me how all three camps in eschatology could quote scripture to support their PRE MID POST beliefs of the one event (the rapture). Then it was revealed to me that it is our understanding of the 70th Week of Daniel is the problem.

It is not one 7 year tribulation but a 7 year period of 2 (3 1/2 year) tribulations.

The Bible divides the 70th Week (2520 days) in two in several ways in several places in scripture.

1260 days (Revelation 11:3 / 12:6)

42 months (Revelation 11:2 / 13:5)

time, times, and half a time Daniel 12:7 / Revelation 12:14).

 

WHY???

 

For goodness sake... we already KNOW it's just one sever-year tribulation... after all. 
 

Edited March 24, 2019 by JohnD

[JohnD]

The keys to the Kingdom are to vanquish any other interpretation of scripture than that of the Holy Spirit (which we verify by the scriptures themselves).

 2 Peter 1:20-21, 1 John 4:1 / 1 Thessalonians 5:21 = Acts 17:11, Deuteronomy 29:29, Proverbs 25:2, Isaiah 28:10-13 these are what I call the keys to the kingdom.
The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible (through the prophets) he alone interprets the Bible and we use the Bible to insure he is the one doing the interpreting.

And we all have bought into more of the traditions of man that we realize.

Mark 7:13 states that the traditions of man nullify the Word of God.

And the gist of Matthew 16:13-23 is the juxtaposition of the ideals, "wisdom,"  thinking processes, etc. of man versus those of God.

AND, by Jesus calling Peter Satan, he attributes the "things of men" to the devil himself.

It's unsettling to realize this is where we all came from. This is what spurs us to interfere with God's work when we are convinced we are doing the right things.

It's also scarey to realize this same fallen sin nature is what drives people around us who have even less reason to show their baser urges restraint than we have. 

This is what life down here truly is.

Edited March 24, 2019 by JohnD

[JustPassingThru]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think we can assume the 24 elders are men, not women.

My point is not about the elders, it's there are men in Heaven, before the beginning of the last seven years, ...who are they?

[JustPassingThru]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, no "men" in heaven at that time, except the elders, and we could guess, Enoch and Elijah, the two men who never died.

Have you even read the chapter? 

The lesson to be learned is no man was found worthy to take the scroll, ...except the God-Man Jesus Christ, how do we know there were men in Heaven at this time, ...because of their song:

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  Rev 5:9

Look what they declare in the next verse:

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.  Rev5:10

If I remember correctly, a royal priesthood is Peter called the Church 1 Pet 2:9

Now look at the song, the chorus that the angels, beasts sang 

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. Rev5:11, 12

Note, ...there is no mention of redemption in the chorus because angels and the beasts don't need to be redeemed, ..........only mankind needs to be redeemed, ........proof, from the mouth of Jesus Christ, there are men in Heaven before the Tribulation starts! 

[The Light]

20 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

Have you even read the chapter? 

The lesson to be learned is no man was found worthy to take the scroll, ...except the God-Man Jesus Christ, how do we know there were men in Heaven at this time, ...because of their song:

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  Rev 5:9

Look what they declare in the next verse:

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.  Rev5:10

If I remember correctly, a royal priesthood is Peter called the Church 1 Pet 2:9

Now look at the song, the chorus that the angels, beasts sang 

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. Rev5:11, 12

Note, ...there is no mention of redemption in the chorus because angels and the beasts don't need to be redeemed, ..........only mankind needs to be redeemed, ........proof, from the mouth of Jesus Christ, there are men in Heaven before the Tribulation starts! 

Bingo. The logic should even impress Mr. Spock.?

[Spock]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Bingo. The logic should even impress Mr. Spock.?

Lol, Impressed with what?  I’m not sure what is being discussed here. Of course there are men here in chapter 5....the 24 elders for sure. I’m not sure where Enoch and Elijah are hanging out either. 

So, Who are the THEY in verse 9. Well you have to go back a bit to answer that. In this case, only to v8...

8. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

is someone arguing whether men were in Heaven in C5?  

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Have you even read the chapter? 

The lesson to be learned is no man was found worthy to take the scroll, ...except the God-Man Jesus Christ, how do we know there were men in Heaven at this time, ...because of their song:

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  Rev 5:9

Look what they declare in the next verse:

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.  Rev5:10

If I remember correctly, a royal priesthood is Peter called the Church 1 Pet 2:9

Now look at the song, the chorus that the angels, beasts sang 

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. Rev5:11, 12

Note, ...there is no mention of redemption in the chorus because angels and the beasts don't need to be redeemed, ..........only mankind needs to be redeemed, ........proof, from the mouth of Jesus Christ, there are men in Heaven before the Tribulation starts! 

Is it truth that Jesus redeemed men (and women) from sin by the shedding of His blood [His death}? Of course it is truth. But this has nothing to do with how many men are in heaven in chapter 4 of Revelation. 

You STILL don't understand the intent of the Author in these two chapters. 

TRY answering the questions Jesus asked me:

1. Why was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father – or anywhere else in the throne room? We know by 95 AD that Jesus had long since ascended. 

2. Why was “no man found” in this first search John watched end in failure?

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended?

 

We will continue when I read your answers.

[JustPassingThru]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

TRY answering the questions Jesus asked me:

I won't TRY to answer your questions, ...I let the Word answer them!

1. Jesus was the first thing John saw in Heaven, the words in bold text are your answer:

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.  And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 

Just for the gee whiz file, ...jasper is white and the sardine is red, ...pure light and blood were represented as a simile of Jesus sitting on the Throne, ...not only is Jesus represented in this simile, in chapter He is represented in a simile as a Lamb freshly slaughtered.

2. Because chapter 4 is all about the Throne of God and Jesus seated on it, ...you read it, it's too long to post here.

3.  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,  Acts 2:1-4

Write the things which thou hast seen (Chapter 1), and the things which are (Chapters 2&3), and the things which shall be hereafter (Chapters 6-22);  Rev 1:19

..the things which are,  ...the Church age.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;  Rev 2:7

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; Rev 2:11 

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;  Rev 2:29

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev 3:6 

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev 3:13

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev 3:22

 

End of the Church age, or as Pail calls it the Dispensation of Grace.  Eph 3:2

If you don't believe what is written here then you need to take it up with God, ...I didn't write the book.

I'm finished here...