"Heaven" . . .

[BeauJangles]

2 hours ago, Willa said:

It was so freeing to me to realize that God is pleased with me right now.  I don't have to keep trying to be pleasing and forever failing.  When freed from the self effort God was able to start transforming me into His likeness by His Spirit.  All my self effort, which became self righteousness, just got in the way of God's work in me.  The just shall live by his faith.

I love, really love this! Thanks for posting it, Willa. God bless!

Shalom, 

David/BeauJangles

[Willa]

This was further brought home to me when I was incapacitated for 3 months.  I felt so worthless, not even being able to cook for family or do any chores.  My knees were bloody from crawling.  So I was consumed with self pity.  That is when God spoke to my heart that He loves me simply because He created me, and now because He lives in me.  I don't have to do anything at all.  He simply loves me.  It is a hard thing to wrap our minds around that we don't have to do anything at all, and He still loves and treasures us simply because we are.  We don't even have to hold down a job or do the things needed to be done.  

[com7fy8]

On 4/3/2019 at 9:27 AM, Billiards Ball said:

"Well, we are indeed not here in order to be pleased, ourselves."

So, the abundant life Jesus spoke of is... ?

So, I'm to witness to unbelievers that, "Stop struggling to find joy in things besides God. Once you live to avoid all pleasure and joy, you will find joy"?

First, we are not here in order to please ourselves. God made us for Him. And Jesus came in order to share with us and have us living for Him > 

"He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." (in 2 Corinthians 5:15)

So, according to what I see here in the Bible, we first need to seek to please God our Heavenly Father. 

Jesus left Heaven itself, in order to reach us and save us from our sins. So, He deserves to have us live for Him. The life He shares with us is better than how in our sinning we have been seeking pleasure and material security and acceptance of selfish people who do not know how to love us. Jesus is able to bring us into real loving, in which we are satisfied in His own love, so we are not desperate to try to feel good by using physical pleasures which can not cure our deep confusion and misery and boredom and loneliness. But Jesus is able to give us "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) in His own peace shared with us. 

The abundance of His peace is better than the abundance of things of this life which have not been giving us secure peace.

So, you are asking, What is the abundant life which Jesus has spoken of? One thing which helps me is how Jesus Himself says >

"Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses." (in Luke 12:15)

So, from this I see how true abundance is not related to having a lot of physical things and pleasures. But the Bible speaks of how abundantly we love. Love is much more worthwhile and satisfying > I mean God's unconditional and tenderly caring all-loving love. And the Holy Spirit in us shares this love with us > Romans 5:5. This has the true value, plus perfect satisfaction and fulfillment >

"to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (Ephesians 3:19)

While Jesus was on this earth, what did He find to be abundant?

First of all, Jesus spend time in prayer so He was sharing with our Father in Heaven. With this, He had abundance of love with our Father Himself. Also, Jesus loved people; He spent time with any and all people, loving any and all. On the cross, Jesus died with hope for any evil person, at all. So, abundance, for Jesus, I would say from this, was about loving generously any and all people. Plus, Jesus had real women who knew how to relate with Him. Their love was truly intimate and personal, not about seeking superficial bodily pleasure. 

So, you ask if you need to tell unbelievers to stop struggling to find joy in things besides God. Well > why are they struggling???? Because they are not deeply satisfied with love; they don't know how to relate in love. And so, in themselves they have deep craving and misery driving them to seek physical pleasure in order to feel better. But physical pleasure can't cure their deep emotional and spiritual trouble; only our Heavenly Father is able to change us out of our sinful nature into character of Jesus who is growing in us > Galatians 4:19, Hebrews 12:4-14. This is why we need to seek His kingdom first, like Jesus says > Matthew 6:33. Because nothing else can work to get us into "rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-30)

So, God's word does not mean for us to totally give up pleasures, but to stop depending on them for what they can not do like God can in us.

You ask if you should tell people they can find joy only if they "avoid" pleasure and joy. No > we find joy, by seeking God for Himself and seeking to please Him. Just avoiding physical pleasure would be depending on work we can get our own selves to do, maybe. But what we do for the sake of Jesus will bring us to all God shares with His children. And this does includes His universe; but more special and valuable are His children with whom we can learn how to love and share as His family.

There are people who can avoid people so they can get the pleasure they want; or they stay only or mainly with ones they can use for what they want; but Jesus warns > "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46). This needs to be avoided. We can not become strong in real love while we just use others for things we want and/or hide with pets we can get along with. We need Jesus in us to make us strong and real so we can live and forgive as His family with various other children of God > Ephesians 4:31-5:2. 

[Michael37]

31 minutes ago, com7fy8 said:

we are not here in order to please ourselves.

So true, com7fy8

This passage below will be under discussion for edification in our ekklesia tomorrow. Are we conditioned to please ourselves before others, or do we seek to please our neighbours for their good to edification? If my neighbour wants me to get drunk with him I politely refuse to please him by doing so because that doesn't match my Biblical instruction of pleasing for good, and to edification. I've actually refused my neighbour's offer of alcohol and shared my faith in Christ at the same time, for his edification, so we don't enable worldliness in our neighbours just to please them.

Rom 15:1-7
(1)  We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
(2)  Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
(3)  For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
(4)  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
(5)  Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
(6)  That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(7)  Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

[Billiards Ball]

10 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

First, we are not here in order to please ourselves. God made us for Him. And Jesus came in order to share with us and have us living for Him > 

"He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." (in 2 Corinthians 5:15)

So, according to what I see here in the Bible, we first need to seek to please God our Heavenly Father. 

Jesus left Heaven itself, in order to reach us and save us from our sins. So, He deserves to have us live for Him. The life He shares with us is better than how in our sinning we have been seeking pleasure and material security and acceptance of selfish people who do not know how to love us. Jesus is able to bring us into real loving, in which we are satisfied in His own love, so we are not desperate to try to feel good by using physical pleasures which can not cure our deep confusion and misery and boredom and loneliness. But Jesus is able to give us "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) in His own peace shared with us. 

The abundance of His peace is better than the abundance of things of this life which have not been giving us secure peace.

So, you are asking, What is the abundant life which Jesus has spoken of? One thing which helps me is how Jesus Himself says >

"Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses." (in Luke 12:15)

So, from this I see how true abundance is not related to having a lot of physical things and pleasures. But the Bible speaks of how abundantly we love. Love is much more worthwhile and satisfying > I mean God's unconditional and tenderly caring all-loving love. And the Holy Spirit in us shares this love with us > Romans 5:5. This has the true value, plus perfect satisfaction and fulfillment >

"to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (Ephesians 3:19)

While Jesus was on this earth, what did He find to be abundant?

First of all, Jesus spend time in prayer so He was sharing with our Father in Heaven. With this, He had abundance of love with our Father Himself. Also, Jesus loved people; He spent time with any and all people, loving any and all. On the cross, Jesus died with hope for any evil person, at all. So, abundance, for Jesus, I would say from this, was about loving generously any and all people. Plus, Jesus had real women who knew how to relate with Him. Their love was truly intimate and personal, not about seeking superficial bodily pleasure. 

So, you ask if you need to tell unbelievers to stop struggling to find joy in things besides God. Well > why are they struggling???? Because they are not deeply satisfied with love; they don't know how to relate in love. And so, in themselves they have deep craving and misery driving them to seek physical pleasure in order to feel better. But physical pleasure can't cure their deep emotional and spiritual trouble; only our Heavenly Father is able to change us out of our sinful nature into character of Jesus who is growing in us > Galatians 4:19, Hebrews 12:4-14. This is why we need to seek His kingdom first, like Jesus says > Matthew 6:33. Because nothing else can work to get us into "rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-30)

So, God's word does not mean for us to totally give up pleasures, but to stop depending on them for what they can not do like God can in us.

You ask if you should tell people they can find joy only if they "avoid" pleasure and joy. No > we find joy, by seeking God for Himself and seeking to please Him. Just avoiding physical pleasure would be depending on work we can get our own selves to do, maybe. But what we do for the sake of Jesus will bring us to all God shares with His children. And this does includes His universe; but more special and valuable are His children with whom we can learn how to love and share as His family.

There are people who can avoid people so they can get the pleasure they want; or they stay only or mainly with ones they can use for what they want; but Jesus warns > "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46). This needs to be avoided. We can not become strong in real love while we just use others for things we want and/or hide with pets we can get along with. We need Jesus in us to make us strong and real so we can live and forgive as His family with various other children of God > Ephesians 4:31-5:2. 

Yes, you are correct. We are to please God (as above) and others (as in Romans 15) except for in the gospel, where we are not people-pleasers, but date to offend.

But my point was I don't witness to unbelievers that if they stop doing anything worldly and stop having fun, they'll have the abundant life. Marriage, fellowship, the outdoors, sports and about a million other things give us joy, abundantly, when we're not drinking and drugging and adultering and coveting and lusting. So we agree!