What Went Wrong?

[Willa]

You have partly misquoted me.  There are many cults and sects that are very unbiblical in the hidden section and these have done as much if not more harm to confuse ungrounded Christians than have atheist.  I have met atheist who were very hardened and cultists who also were, with none of these confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Masters.  Some of the apologists for these cults twisted Scripture and considered other writing and confessions to be superior to the Bible.  They were very hard to deal with because genuine Christians use the Bible as their foundation and it is common ground, where cults do not.   So I consider unbelievers to include the cults in that hidden area.  I didn't bother to answer or try to correct you or explain since by that time you were becoming hostile and very defensive.  What I said was pretty much what George and others had said.  I am sorry you took offense.  I am not one of the people who feels competent to deal with atheists.  I can witness to them what God has done in my own life and tell them my testimony, but I cannot debate with them.

This is the post you took offense to:

"We have been there, tried that.  We are a Christian forum.  We found that many of the people in the hidden sections were trying to convert us to their unbelief or errors, and new Christians and even young teens who are not established in our faith were being confused if not led astray by some of those unbelievers.  Many in that group are quite hardened.  Nevertheless mature, solid  believers here are trying to reach out to them and even disciple those who desire to be taught the truth. " 

 

[missmuffet]

On 4/4/2019 at 2:29 AM, thomas t said:

Hi everyone,

a moderator told me that new Christians and even young teens who are not established in our faith were being confused if not led astray by some of those unbelievers. She said this with regard to the discussions in the hidden sections.

But I think this is also true for the discussions we had in the main sections and this, I'm afraid, is one of the main reasons for why they are banned from posting in a visible way. (see George's comment here)

If there was always a compelling answer provided by us to the questions the unbelievers come up with, then there wouldn't be any confusion, I think.

Jesus answered any question with flying colours. Regardless of how nasty the question was.

So why can't we do the same with the questions of our non-believers/doubters. Not knowing the answer ... I thought it might be best if everybody could think and come up with one argument coming from the theist side that didn't convince anyone.

If we can't convince our teenagers we have a problem. Whether or not we ban the nonbelievers from posting here, sooner or later the teenagers will encounter them anyways in their lives. We can't just go ahead and create a parallel universe for our teens in which they would never be in touch with any doubters, I think. So, if non-believers can "successfully" confuse us, our arguments are too weak. At least part of them, I think.

So I would like to begin a debate presenting one argument stemming from the believing side that didn't impress, in my opinion. Maybe you know of others, too.

 

Atheists have faith. In this discussion, for example, this argument usually proposed by believers just didn't work out.

The atheist simply states he didn't have no faith, and then usually it is over for the Christian apologist. Honestly, I saw many debates on this, and the atheist's position always was more compelling than the believer's. And I think this argument from the theist side almost always turned into a far too complicated stance. We should keep things simple, I think.

Why are Christians so eager to convince atheists that they believe?

Is belief a shame?

No it is not, I think. I would suggest to let them say they behave rationally. The Christian God, as I see it, cannot be discovered by reason alone, for it says:

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

Mark 12:30. Reason is but one fourth required to get faith, I think.

Regards,

Thomas

We can tell them the "TRUTH" about Jesus Christ. That is all we can do. Their eyes and minds have then digested the words. Life if full of choices. We either want to spend our eternity in heaven or in hell. God is the only one who can open up the heart to Him.

[Xethea]

On 4/4/2019 at 5:29 AM, thomas t said:

Hi everyone,

a moderator told me that new Christians and even young teens who are not established in our faith were being confused if not led astray by some of those unbelievers. She said this with regard to the discussions in the hidden sections.

But I think this is also true for the discussions we had in the main sections and this, I'm afraid, is one of the main reasons for why they are banned from posting in a visible way. (see George's comment here)

If there was always a compelling answer provided by us to the questions the unbelievers come up with, then there wouldn't be any confusion, I think.

Jesus answered any question with flying colours. Regardless of how nasty the question was.

So why can't we do the same with the questions of our non-believers/doubters. Not knowing the answer ... I thought it might be best if everybody could think and come up with one argument coming from the theist side that didn't convince anyone.

If we can't convince our teenagers we have a problem. Whether or not we ban the nonbelievers from posting here, sooner or later the teenagers will encounter them anyways in their lives. We can't just go ahead and create a parallel universe for our teens in which they would never be in touch with any doubters, I think. So, if non-believers can "successfully" confuse us, our arguments are too weak. At least part of them, I think.

So I would like to begin a debate presenting one argument stemming from the believing side that didn't impress, in my opinion. Maybe you know of others, too.

 

Atheists have faith. In this discussion, for example, this argument usually proposed by believers just didn't work out.

The atheist simply states he didn't have no faith, and then usually it is over for the Christian apologist. Honestly, I saw many debates on this, and the atheist's position always was more compelling than the believer's. And I think this argument from the theist side almost always turned into a far too complicated stance. We should keep things simple, I think.

Why are Christians so eager to convince atheists that they believe?

Is belief a shame?

No it is not, I think. I would suggest to let them say they behave rationally. The Christian God, as I see it, cannot be discovered by reason alone, for it says:

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

Mark 12:30. Reason is but one fourth required to get faith, I think.

Regards,

Thomas

I tell Atheist the Gospel, the truth, and I have no other belief or effort into changing their mind in the end other than letting the Lord to convince them. Knowledge and wisdom won't get you to believe, being gullible to listen to it because you'll believe almost anything won't make that true belief, it takes faith, and this faith won't come from any sinner and their evil hearts. Faith isn't a thing of the brain. So if I have done all I can to witness to them and they still don't, the rest is between them and the Lord.

 

But when I do witness, I don't just shove a bunch of information and scripture in their face. Instead, I get to know them a bit, I ask them what they believe, I ask them why the believe what they believe, I ask them what have Christians been telling them who God and Christ is, and also what is their view of the Lord- that gives me the answer to see their reasons for denying Christ. Atheist don't usually deny Christ because they don't have the knowledge, but it can be that they were raped, child abused, poor, cheated on, everything in life is just going terrible, their children died, their parents are suffering in cancer, etc- a list of countless things, and when they hear about this caring and loving God who can do anything, and that God made everything, then God isn't doing anything about these bad things that have happened and still happen, they feel anger towards God and blame Him for it. So, then they may just be making up lies and try to think of ways to say they can prove the Bible is a lie, but the truth is, they really just hate the Lord for personal issues in their lives. I see many of them have already heard the truth, and they just keep arguing with Christian's about it, but what they usually need, is love. They need a godly example of Christ's love in you, and showing that even though you understand their evilness and that they are wrong, you are still there to help them and love them and why you have faith in Christ.

 

They may need to see an example of Christ through you and not just words alone. But God saves people through different experiences. Yet, i find a lot of atheist say they deny Christ, simply because they have been hearing about a fake Jesus Christ and the fake God from this world of fake Christians. They think that Jesus is the real Jesus, but it's not. I tell them, you probably claim you hate or don't believe in Him, because that's not the Jesus I know who saved me. Now, I can share with you about the Jesus I know and show you in scripture why.

Atheist have questioned again and started to open a bit more after that because now they have met a Christian who isn't like every other Christian they have met, this one is different, more loving, caring, calm, understands what they're talking about, always has scripture for backup and not opinions or just thoughts, who is concerned about the Atheist and not just telling them how to live or they're going to Hell, etc.

 

I'm doing this again with an Atheist this week. They are quite stubborn, but I gave them a quiz test about how well do they even know the Lord and scripture, and they got every single answer wrong in 20 questions. I told them, this may be the issue why you don't believe. Who you've told me God is to the world and to you, is completely NOT who God is. Maybe if you had the opposite view and understanding of God, then maybe you would believe. Maybe you say you deny Him, because it's the fake God and not the real one.

 

Overall, the Lord draws people to Jesus, the Lord gives them the faith they need, not us and not themselves. We are called to spread the Gospel and share the word and witness, but we aren't called to change their minds and hearts. That's God's job for His glory.

[Blood Bought 1953]

8 hours ago, Xethea said:

I tell Atheist the Gospel, the truth, and I have no other belief or effort into changing their mind in the end other than letting the Lord to convince them. Knowledge and wisdom won't get you to believe, being gullible to listen to it because you'll believe almost anything won't make that true belief, it takes faith, and this faith won't come from any sinner and their evil hearts. Faith isn't a thing of the brain. So if I have done all I can to witness to them and they still don't, the rest is between them and the Lord.

 

But when I do witness, I don't just shove a bunch of information and scripture in their face. Instead, I get to know them a bit, I ask them what they believe, I ask them why the believe what they believe, I ask them what have Christians been telling them who God and Christ is, and also what is their view of the Lord- that gives me the answer to see their reasons for denying Christ. Atheist don't usually deny Christ because they don't have the knowledge, but it can be that they were raped, child abused, poor, cheated on, everything in life is just going terrible, their children died, their parents are suffering in cancer, etc- a list of countless things, and when they hear about this caring and loving God who can do anything, and that God made everything, then God isn't doing anything about these bad things that have happened and still happen, they feel anger towards God and blame Him for it. So, then they may just be making up lies and try to think of ways to say they can prove the Bible is a lie, but the truth is, they really just hate the Lord for personal issues in their lives. I see many of them have already heard the truth, and they just keep arguing with Christian's about it, but what they usually need, is love. They need a godly example of Christ's love in you, and showing that even though you understand their evilness and that they are wrong, you are still there to help them and love them and why you have faith in Christ.

 

They may need to see an example of Christ through you and not just words alone. But God saves people through different experiences. Yet, i find a lot of atheist say they deny Christ, simply because they have been hearing about a fake Jesus Christ and the fake God from this world of fake Christians. They think that Jesus is the real Jesus, but it's not. I tell them, you probably claim you hate or don't believe in Him, because that's not the Jesus I know who saved me. Now, I can share with you about the Jesus I know and show you in scripture why.

Atheist have questioned again and started to open a bit more after that because now they have met a Christian who isn't like every other Christian they have met, this one is different, more loving, caring, calm, understands what they're talking about, always has scripture for backup and not opinions or just thoughts, who is concerned about the Atheist and not just telling them how to live or they're going to Hell, etc.

 

I'm doing this again with an Atheist this week. They are quite stubborn, but I gave them a quiz test about how well do they even know the Lord and scripture, and they got every single answer wrong in 20 questions. I told them, this may be the issue why you don't believe. Who you've told me God is to the world and to you, is completely NOT who God is. Maybe if you had the opposite view and understanding of God, then maybe you would believe. Maybe you say you deny Him, because it's the fake God and not the real one.

 

Overall, the Lord draws people to Jesus, the Lord gives them the faith they need, not us and not themselves. We are called to spread the Gospel and share the word and witness, but we aren't called to change their minds and hearts. That's God's job for His glory.

 

I would love to see your quiz....sounds like a great tool! Do you take VISA? Lol......

[thomas t]

18 hours ago, Xethea said:

but the truth is, they really just hate the Lord for personal issues in their lives.

Hi Xethea,

I find this was quite generalizing.

18 hours ago, Xethea said:

their evilness

... generalizing again...

Regards,

Thomas

 

[JustPassingThru]

On 4/20/2019 at 10:29 AM, Xethea said:

I'm doing this again with an Atheist this week. They are quite stubborn, but I gave them a quiz test about how well do they even know the Lord and scripture, and they got every single answer wrong in 20 questions.

I would like a copy of your quiz too, ...please, ...can you post it for us?

Edited April 21, 2019 by JustPassingThru

[thomas t]

On 4/20/2019 at 4:55 AM, Willa said:

you were becoming hostile

Hi Willa,

hostile? No.

Regards,

Thomas

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 11:28 PM, missmuffet said:

We can tell them the "TRUTH" about Jesus Christ. That is all we can do. Their eyes and minds have then digested the words. Life if full of choices. We either want to spend our eternity in heaven or in hell. God is the only one who can open up the heart to Him.

marvel not .   marvel not .     No man can come unto Me , lest the Father draw Him .   

And the only condemnation is , that light has come into the world , but men reject the light ,  they love the darkness more than the LIGHT .  MORE THAN

the LIGHT and wont come to the LIGHT , lest their evil deeds be reproved .      Thus let all proclaim the name of Christ as the ONLY savoir

That is our duty ,  to show , tell , point to Christ and if one rejects we move on as our LORD said to do .   We cannot open their eyes ,   ALL we can do is by grace

expound truth and who will come will come and who will reject will reject .     Known unto GOD are all things ,  we must simply learn Christ , feasting daily on the bible

and heed those instructions BY the SPIRIT which supplies all we need IN CHRIST .      

[frienduff thaylorde]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 10:06 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

I would love to see your quiz....sounds like a great tool! Do you take VISA? Lol......

I got a pop quiz question for you blood bought .     True or false , the POPE is a pure example of JESUS on earth who has been given the KEYS and thus must be heeded and followed .

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Dont sweat anything......you can always pay it off in Purgatory........DONT GET ME STARTED on that DAMNABLE DOCTRINE!!   Grrrrrrrr.......