Are these the twelve last shepherds in Israel ?

[Justin Adams]

4 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

Jude quoting from from the book of Enoch does not indicate the entire book was inspired, or even true. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe that the book or books in which the case may be, of Enoch to have been truly written by Enoch of the bible. 

If you look at the various 'Q' documents found, there are some very interesting commentaries and some include Enoch and other writings that were available at the time of Yeshua. So when Saul says 'all scriptures are beneficial...etc' he is referring to stuff he had available. The NT was largely unformed at that time. So he had the Tanach, Talmuds, other Judaic writings along with Enoch, The Giants and others. That was his study material. It is only modern seminaries that did not want to embrace these old writings that effectively told everyone it was EVIL to read them. A kind of inquisitional mindset. It has served us badly because there is so much more of a COSMIC nature to learn from God and His dealings both in the natural and spiritual realm.

P.s. I think we have to take a careful look at what 'inspired' means and what is does NOT mean. It has been used as a kind of 'magic word' to defend certain translations and transliterations. As if we can wholly compass who God is in a few verses. Even John said that the whole world could not contain all that Yeshua did while on earth. So what we have is the necessary bare bones that God expects us to use our intelligence with and not fashion those bones into a club...

The way the scriptures are written is very clever and REQUIRES us to piece together the various COSMIC passages and flesh them out with good scholarship. It is basically all there, but ya gotta look hard and not imagine too much and create doctrines over little tit-bits of non linear prophesy and visions.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Justin Adams

[dhchristian]

5 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

On 8/8/2019 at 7:08 AM, BeauJangles said:

 

Not really, it was preserved by the Hebrew from generation to generation and i guess it was Noah who inherit that from his parents.

Did you see the 58 ancient shepherds have been fulfilled in the ancient time ?

And then the book jumped to the last twelve shepherds which actually speak about end times nation of Israel as we know now.

The Book of Enoch is not scripture because it was altered and edited and there is no way to figure out what is an alteration and what is the actual text. Some people also believe it is a combination of the writings of Enoch and parts of the book of Noah. The Question is how did Enoch quote Noah when he preceded him, so there is always the question of authorship.

Personally I believe it is like a journal that was added to by successive people, Enoch, Noah, Shem.... Which all draws into question its accuracy and inspiration. It is worth reading, and may have some clues to end times, and does have that fact that Jude quoted from it so the apostles were familiar with it.

RE: OP

If there is one person that stands in the way of globalism it is Netanyahu. I Have heard some theories that he in fact is the "HE" that restrains, in 2 Thess. 2???? 

[Justin Adams]

43 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

If there is one person that stands in the way of globalism it is Netanyahu. I Have heard some theories that he in fact is the "HE" that restrains, in 2 Thess. 2???? 

OH. Now that is interesting. Probably not the one, but very interesting. Let's see how it plays out.

[Jayne]

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Jayne

[Jayne]

7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Not really, it was preserved by the Hebrew from generation to generation and i guess it was Noah who inherit that from his parents.

Did you see the 58 ancient shepherds have been fulfilled in the ancient time ?

And then the book jumped to the last twelve shepherds which actually speak about end times nation of Israel as we know now.

Brother, please listen to me.  This is will my only post in this thread as it burdens me in my heart to listen to people call the book/s of Enoch scripture or even reliable.

Yes, the quotes in Enoch and Jude are very similar.  Don't you think that a very viable possibility could be they both quoted a common source?  Why does everyone accept that Jude quoted the author of Enoch, which was not the Biblical Enoch - without considering that they both quoted from a common source? 

Have you actually read the three books of Enoch? 

I have.  It is the craziest bunch of heresies and lies that I have ever read in my life.  Now there is a difference between a lie and a copyist error or misprint. I will give you just two examples as you will either believe me or you will not.  

From http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe070.htm

This link is chapter 67.  

•   It says that Noah claims that God told him that the ANGELS were building an ark that when they finished, God would preserve both it and Noah so that the world would not be unfruitful.  The BIBLE says that Noah built the ark upon God's clear and explicit instruction.
•  It also says in this chapter that Noah claims that his grandfather Enoch took him to see a particular burning valley west of a mountain of gold and silver.  That's IMPOSSIBLE according to the Bible.  The Bible says that Enoch "was no more" and was NOT FOUND almost 70  years before Noah was even born.
•  The book was Enoch also claims that Enoch "was found" but that's another chapter.

From http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe013.htm

This link is chapter 10.

•  It says that God sent an angel named Uriel to tell Noah that a flood was coming and that he [Noah] would survive, but that he [Noah] was in the name of the Lord "to hide".  The Bible says differently.  
• God tells an angel named Raphael to bind the evil angel Azazel in a hole in the desert and cover him with rocks for eternity because "to him all sin is ascribed" and that he corrupted all of mankind.  The Bible says through one MAN sin entered the world.    
• God tells Michael to bind Simjaza and other fallen angels because it's their fault that "mankind has been wronged" and been corrupted.  The Bible says that mankind was the one DOING the wronging because their hearts were inclined to evil all of the time.  The Bible says mankind was the reason of the flood, not fallen angels tormenting innocent humans.  The Bible says God was sorrowful that he had even MADE mankind, not defending mankind from angels!!    
• Now here comes the heresy.  This chapter in Enoch says that God told Michael to clean the land of corruption and "plant righteousness and truth".  He tells Michel to "cleanse the earth from sin, unrighteousness, ungodliness, uncleanness, and oppression.  THEN the "children of men" and all nations would be made righteous and would adore and praise God and that the whole earth would be cleansed from sin. An angel - not even Michael has the authority to cleanse anyone or anything from sin!! The book of Enoch gives the glory and authority that belongs to Christ alone and attributes it to Michael.
• Beside, after the flood, THAT ISN'T WHAT HAPPENED!  Just as soon as Noah and his family came out of the Ark and made a sacrifice, God said, “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." God makes clear that the human heart is vile and is the problem - NOT conditioning and training to be corrupt by fallen angels.

 

[Justin Adams]

I think the Q pieces shed some light on this. The Qumran scholars were ultra conservative and thought the Pharisees had completely lost the plot. Some of their commentaries are very good and they were not afraid of 2nd Temple Judaic studies and literature either. There are many quizzical writings today that claim to be 'the real deal'. Only extensive study will reveal where the ancient writings coalesce with other scriptures that were included in the apocryphal literature. At the time of the so-called canon's forming (three of them or more) Polycarp, Iraneus and other church fathers were still arguing and Revelations was almost left out along with a couple others. They all basically conceded to the loudest and most physically able. Some just threw in the towel and went along because they were so weary. There are many apostolic quotes, almost word for word from some of the ancient texts that only Qumran shed some light on. The inter-testament period saw many works lost to us and the Tanach mentions a couple books like Jehu and Jasher.

Ridiculing some of these obvious silly verses and sayings is not going to make them go away, so it it is far more scholastic to refute them like one would Darby and the Pope and Scofield. Not to mention Calvin and some of the 'modern-above-reproach' purveyors of horrible doctrines.

[R. Hartono]

On 8/10/2019 at 2:03 AM, Jayne said:

I have.  It is the craziest bunch of heresies and lies that I have ever read in my life.  Now there is a difference between a lie and a copyist error or misprint. I will give you just two examples as you will either believe me or you will not.  

From http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe070.htm

This link is chapter 67.  

•   It says that Noah claims that God told him that the ANGELS were building an ark that when they finished, God would preserve both it and Noah so that the world would not be unfruitful.  The BIBLE says that Noah built the ark upon God's clear and explicit instruction.
•  It also says in this chapter that Noah claims that his grandfather Enoch took him to see a particular burning valley west of a mountain of gold and silver.  That's IMPOSSIBLE according to the Bible.  The Bible says that Enoch "was no more" and was NOT FOUND almost 70  years before Noah was even born.
•  The book was Enoch also claims that Enoch "was found" but that's another chapter.

From http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe013.htm

This link is chapter 10.

•  It says that God sent an angel named Uriel to tell Noah that a flood was coming and that he [Noah] would survive, but that he [Noah] was in the name of the Lord "to hide".  The Bible says differently.  
• God tells an angel named Raphael to bind the evil angel Azazel in a hole in the desert and cover him with rocks for eternity because "to him all sin is ascribed" and that he corrupted all of mankind.  The Bible says through one MAN sin entered the world.    
• God tells Michael to bind Simjaza and other fallen angels because it's their fault that "mankind has been wronged" and been corrupted.  The Bible says that mankind was the one DOING the wronging because their hearts were inclined to evil all of the time.  The Bible says mankind was the reason of the flood, not fallen angels tormenting innocent humans.  The Bible says God was sorrowful that he had even MADE mankind, not defending mankind from angels!!    
• Now here comes the heresy.  This chapter in Enoch says that God told Michael to clean the land of corruption and "plant righteousness and truth".  He tells Michel to "cleanse the earth from sin, unrighteousness, ungodliness, uncleanness, and oppression.  THEN the "children of men" and all nations would be made righteous and would adore and praise God and that the whole earth would be cleansed from sin. An angel - not even Michael has the authority to cleanse anyone or anything from sin!! The book of Enoch gives the glory and authority that belongs to Christ alone and attributes it to Michael.
• Beside, after the flood, THAT ISN'T WHAT HAPPENED!  Just as soon as Noah and his family came out of the Ark and made a sacrifice, God said, “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done." God makes clear that the human heart is vile and is the problem - NOT conditioning and training to be corrupt by fallen angels.

 

It seems some people have changed some verses to suit their interest. Are this prophecy of 70 shepherds in Israel was also man made ? It may not so likely because it deals with numbers.

But its interesting to note that these prophecy of 35 + 23 ancient shepherds in Israel has been fulfilled in ancient times.

Isnt it incredible how the Book says there will be the last twelve shepherds ? Which as we now see, happen when Israel was rebirthed in 1948 thus it becomes the LAST twelve shepherds. This word "last" is therefore very prophetic as it deals with the rebirthed Israel.

And if its true, Netanjahu is the last of the 12 end times shepherds, and now the 2nd re-election resulted in dead lock again ? And the idea of Power Share Deal between two PMs ? The 13th shepherd is not likely to rule if this prophecy is true.

Edited September 26, 2019 by R. Hartono

[luigi]

On 4/5/2019 at 2:48 AM, R. Hartono said:

 

Enoch 90:19 And I saw till a great sword was given to the sheep, and the sheep proceeded against all the beasts of the field to slay them, and all the beasts and the birds of the heaven fled before their face. And I saw that man, who wrote the book according to the command of the Lord, till he opened that book concerning the destruction which those twelve last shepherds had wrought, and showed that they had destroyed much more than their predecessors, before the Lord of the sheep. And I saw till the Lord of the sheep came unto them and took in His hand the staff of His wrath, and smote the earth, and the earth clave asunder, and all the beasts and all the birds of the heaven fell from among those sheep, and were swallowed up in the earth and it covered them. 20 And I saw till a throne was erected in the pleasant land, and the Lord of the sheep sat Himself thereon, and the other took the sealed books and opened those books before the Lord of the sheep.

Is Netanyahu  the last twelve shepherds in Israel ?

 

I'm of the opinion that the twelve shepherds who destroyed much more that their predecessors represent the events in Revelation 9, after the bottomless pit is opened, where we see 1/3 of mankind killed by earth's combined military forces numbering 200 million.

[Jayne]

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

It seems some people have changed some verses to suit their interest. Are this prophecy of 70 shepherds in Israel was also man made ? It may not so likely because it deals with numbers.

But its interesting to note that these prophecy of 35 + 23 ancient shepherds in Israel has been fulfilled in ancient times.

Isnt it incredible how the Book says there will be the last twelve shepherds ? Which as we now see, happen when Israel was rebirthed in 1948 thus it becomes the LAST twelve shepherds. This word "last" is therefore very prophetic as it deals with the rebirthed Israel.

And if its true, Netanjahu is the last of the 12 end times shepherds, and now the 2nd re-election resulted in dead lock again ? And the idea of Power Share Deal between two PMs ? The 13th shepherd is not likely to rule if this prophecy is true.

Brother, apparently you did not understand my post that you quoted.  I gave you a few examples of the lies and awful error.  I could have posted TONS, but no one likes to read long posts.  Anyway, to expose all of the error and lies, I would have had to posted virtually the entire thing.

I'll rephrase.  NO ONE "CHANGED VERSES" in the book of Enoch to "SUIT THEIR INTEREST".  

R. Hartono - the ENTIRE book of Enoch is fiction, fantasy, lies, and corruption of the Bible.

You said, "But its interesting to note that these prophecy of 35 + 23 ancient shepherds in Israel has been fulfilled in ancient times." No, brother.  The author of the book of Enoch, which was not Enoch, wrote this book just shortly before Christ was born.  All of those kings had been dead for centuries.  It was history.  One does not predict history.  One recites it.  This would be like you or me writing a book and including the phrase, "There will be a country called the United States of American and it will have presidents, the first being George Washington, a great general." Then we claim the book was written by Alexander the Great and you or I call it the book of Alexander.  We predicted NOTHING.  The author of the book of Enoch predicted NOTHING.  It is NOT interesting to note someone reciting history and calling it his own prediction.  It's proof that the book is a book of lies.

You said, "Isnt it incredible …….The 13th shepherd is not likely to rule if this prophecy is true."  No, nothing in the book of Enoch is amazing or marvelous or incredible OR CREDIBLE."

The book of Enoch negates the Bible over and over and over and over and over and over hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of time.  I KNOW because I've read all three books - more than once.

It is a book of lies.  You are either going to believe the Bible or the book of Enoch.

You cannot believe both.  It is totally impossible.  

 

[R. Hartono]

On 8/9/2019 at 11:13 PM, Justin Adams said:

If you look at the various 'Q' documents found, there are some very interesting commentaries and some include Enoch and other writings that were available at the time of Yeshua. So when Saul says 'all scriptures are beneficial...etc' he is referring to stuff he had available. The NT was largely unformed at that time. So he had the Tanach, Talmuds, other Judaic writings along with Enoch, The Giants and others. That was his study material. It is only modern seminaries that did not want to embrace these old writings that effectively told everyone it was EVIL to read them. A kind of inquisitional mindset. It has served us badly because there is so much more of a COSMIC nature to learn from God and His dealings both in the natural and spiritual realm.

P.s. I think we have to take a careful look at what 'inspired' means and what is does NOT mean. It has been used as a kind of 'magic word' to defend certain translations and transliterations. As if we can wholly compass who God is in a few verses. Even John said that the whole world could not contain all that Yeshua did while on earth. So what we have is the necessary bare bones that God expects us to use our intelligence with and not fashion those bones into a club...

The way the scriptures are written is very clever and REQUIRES us to piece together the various COSMIC passages and flesh them out with good scholarship. It is basically all there, but ya gotta look hard and not imagine too much and create doctrines over little tit-bits of non linear prophesy and visions.

Thats right bro. The book of Joshua also mentioned the book of jasher which is not accepted by scholars, but the book of jasher n the book of Enoch was preserved in many generation by the jews, Jude quoted it i think he knew better than us, though some verses may hv been altered now. Its the only book that explained the world of the fallen angels who taught mankind many skills such as  sorceries, mining, etc n created monsters n explained the inprisonment of azazel in the bottomless pit, the Hebrew gave two goats for atonement, one for God, one for azazel to b thrown away at the desert because azazel is bound at the desert until now.

Edited September 27, 2019 by R. Hartono