Predetermined life vs. free will

[Reinitin]

On 6/2/2019 at 10:36 AM, mlbrokish said:

I have had this question for some time and posed it to a friend the other day, although worded somewhat differently...

 

How much of our life is predetermined by God and how much is free to choose?

When you look at your thumb print everyone has a fingerprint but everyone is a one of a kind. I imagine each of us is fearfully and wonderfully made. And Gods divine intervention and respect for free will is not a set formula but determined according to his purposes in Christ. 

[enoob57]

On 6/2/2019 at 12:11 PM, mlbrokish said:

Luke,

That's kinda where I have been until recently.  I just wonder if our free will may interfere with God's plan and He presents results that re-directs our path to be His will.  

Does God direct fate or destiny?

To best see free will in man:

Isa 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV

                                                                                                                    As you can see the death of the wicked is not of God's doing...

Ezek 33:11

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV

                                                                                                                     In fact it is against His will that they do so... 

2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

[9] The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

It is clear from these passages that God has given eternal choice to His created image....

 

 

[enoob57]

14 hours ago, mlbrokish said:

I am a novice at interpreting scripture, but what confuses me is that I believe God has a plan, so if we choose (by our own free will) to take a path that is not part of His plan, does God "re-route" us to get back to His predetermined path?

God is not culpable to any that perish... In fact He has done absolutely everything to prevent that apart from removing the intended image man was made from the beginning.... as image represents the most important concept- 'has God had any influence outside from Himself' (before creating)

Isaiah 46:9 (NKJV)

          [9] Remember the former things of old,

For I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is none like Me,

In this unique revelatory confession of God we are able to ascertain that God only holds the place of decision for Himself in the councils of His Spirit and Son... thus in that image we are formed! As nothing has told God what to do so then in that image He made man He has given choice not forced be and thus be.... There then exists the simplicity of choice either God or the created thing....

 

 

[gordon7777]

29 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

To best see free will in man:

Isa 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV

                                                                                                                    As you can see the death of the wicked is not of God's doing...

Ezek 33:11

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV

                                                                                                                     In fact it is against His will that they do so... 

2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)

[9] The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

It is clear from these passages that God has given eternal choice to His created image....

 

 

 

Regarding the wicked as per Ezekiels testimony, now God does not have pleasure in the wicked dying, and asks why will you not turn and live ? The answer is clearer just by looking at more from God, more from man would not make sense right ? Because those who are accustomed to doing evil, cannot then do good, the leopard cannot change his spots, right ? The wicked also, are estranged to God from the moment they are born, speaking lies. Jesus also revealed the same as those two examples, how those who killed the prophets(the same wicked people God appealed to in Ezekiel) fill up the measure of their fathers, and cannot escape the damnation of hell, and then they fulfilled Christs words here as they murdered Christ in the flesh too but He was quickened through the Spirit.

 

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

 

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

The Lord is not willing that any should perish. He will have all men to be saved. God will have all men come to the knowledge of the truth. This is why we give prayers and thanks for all men, because the Lord accepts all, such as Matthew who was a tax collector, but we see Christ chose them not they themselves..

 

2 Peter 3:⁹ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

1 Timothy 2:2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Jesus knew who He chose, knew that one He chose was a devil, to fulfill the scripture, that shows all is by the Lords pre-determination entirely..

 

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

 

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

All things by the counsel of His own will..

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

[enoob57]

6 minutes ago, gordon7777 said:

Regarding the wicked as per Ezekiels testimony, now God does not have pleasure in the wicked dying, and asks why will you not turn and live ? The answer is clearer just by looking at more from God, more from man would not make sense right ? Because those who are accustomed to doing evil, cannot then do good, the leopard cannot change his spots, right ? The wicked also, are estranged to God from the moment they are born, speaking lies. Jesus also revealed the same as those two examples, how those who killed the prophets(the same wicked people God appealed to in Ezekiel) fill up the measure of their fathers, and cannot escape the damnation of hell, and then they fulfilled Christs words here as they murdered Christ in the flesh too but He was quickened through the Spirit.

 

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

 

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

The Lord is not willing that any should perish. He will have all men to be saved. God will have all men come to the knowledge of the truth. This is why we give prayers and thanks for all men, because the Lord accepts all, such as Matthew who was a tax collector, but we see Christ chose them not they themselves..

 

2 Peter 3:⁹ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

1 Timothy 2:2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Jesus knew who He chose, knew that one He chose was a devil, to fulfill the scripture, that shows all is by the Lords pre-determination entirely..

 

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

 

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

All things by the counsel of His own will..

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

none of this is rightly considered till we recognize what has already been post by me.... to just give verse that support your understood meaning does not satisfy the tension already set forth in what I mentioned! You cannot have no and yes in for the same thing in logic...

[mlbrokish]

1 hour ago, Reinitin said:

When you look at your thumb print everyone has a fingerprint but everyone is a one of a kind. I imagine each of us is fearfully and wonderfully made. And Gods divine intervention and respect for free will is not a set formula but determined according to his purposes in Christ. 

I like your explanation. It makes sense how our choices, although sometimes poor ones, can produce certain unique results and God's divine intervention can change things in a way that directs us to His way. 

Thank you,

mlb

[johnthebaptist]

6 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

The Bible tells me what my boss wants me to do.

That it does.

[johnthebaptist]

4 hours ago, mlbrokish said:

While I certainly appreciate equal rights, as a woman, I think there is a balance of pros and cons for women and men, regardless how or why God says man is to rule over his wife. The bible has many examples of women being honored by their husbands, treated with dignity, etc. 

I found this article, which sheds some light on the subject:

The Biblical Portrait of Women: Setting the Record Straight at  Grace To You - gty.org

From the very first chapter of the Bible, we are taught that women, like men, bear the stamp of God's own image (Genesis 1:27; 5:1-2)—men and women were created equal. Women play prominent roles in many key biblical narratives. Wives are seen as venerated partners and cherished companions to their husbands, not merely slaves or pieces of household furniture (Genesis 2:20-24; Proverbs 19:14; Ecclesiastes 9:9). At Sinai, God commanded children to honor both father and mother (Exodus 20:12). 
 

read the rest of the writing at the website mentioned above for more thoughts on the topic.

What do you think?

mlb

 

I have to stop you way up where you said, "regardless how or why God says man is to rule over his wife." I believe it was Paul who said that. I don't remember the Lord saying that.

[simplejeff]

7 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

I have to stop you way up where you said, "regardless how or why God says man is to rule over his wife." I believe it was Paul who said that. I don't remember the Lord saying that.

Study Bible

The Peril of Unbelief
…14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. 15As it has been said: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as you did in the rebellion.” 16For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?…

Berean Study Bible · Download

Cross References

Psalm 95:7
For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, the sheep under His care. Today, if you hear His voice,

Hebrews 3:7
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear His voice,

Hebrews 4:7
God again designated a certain day as "Today," when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts."

[NickyLouse]

On 6/2/2019 at 8:36 AM, mlbrokish said:

I have had this question for some time and posed it to a friend the other day, although worded somewhat differently...

 

How much of our life is predetermined by God and how much is free to choose?

Hi mlbrokish. If I assume you are talking about salvation, we have no free will. Most people are semi-Pelagianists and will say that the only thing we do to earn salvation is to believe. Do we have the free will not to believe once He reveals the truth of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus? I think not, if we have truly understood. Only someone who is not in their right mind (canceling the question of free will) would "choose" to jump out of an airplane without a parachute when given the "choice" of first putting one on. However, if you are in your right mind, you allow the parachute to be placed upon you.

What we do have free will about is to repent of our sin and thus be sanctified - set apart for God's workmanship. In that respect, our sovereign God will use whomever chooses to repent of sin (whether of commission or omission) to accomplish His will on earth. But that is ONLY AFTER salvation has been given. As I have heard said many times, we are dead in our sin and dead men make no choices concerning anything. But once we are made alive in Christ, we must choose whom we will serve.

https://www.gotquestions.org/semi-Pelagianism.html

Excerpt:

 Semi-Pelagianism allows that humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot cooperate with God's grace on our own. Semi-Pelagianism is, in essence, partial depravity as opposed to total depravity. We are sinful, but we can still recognize the truth, cooperate with God’s grace, and choose to seek Christ. We need God’s grace to be saved, but we can take the first step toward Christ on our own, apart from grace.

Edited June 4, 2019 by NickyLouse
spelling - add excerpt - clarify parachute analogy - stipulated salvation before sanctification - corrected semi-Pelagianist term